Dove v pigeon

BUR #23753 has been rejected.

remove alias white_dove -> dove
mass update dove -> white_dove -dove
create alias dove -> pigeon

Currently the only difference between dove and pigeon is whether it's white. This is a better name imo. In terms of biology dove tends to be the name for the smaller species and pigeon tends to be the the name for the larger species, the common "city pigeon" is actually called a "rock dove" though I can't remember if "rock pigeon" was also accurate but that is about the size where it splits and the size most white and non white birds on here are. Similar to crows and ravens which got aliased to be the same.

We had explained the problem here several times now, and it still hold true here: We don't. Care about. Accurate zoology. Yes, a pigeon and a dove are biologically essentially the same thing, but very few people actually care about that on an imageboard site. The only thing that matters is that people can actually search for it.

The dove tag is not for realistic doves. It is for the common depiction in media (like anime) to portray a dove as a white bird. They are visually distinct and separate concepts, and we follow "tag what you see", not "tag what is most biologically accurate". And like it or not, but pigeons and doves are very much not the same thing, on a "tag what you see" principle. We don't need "white dove" as a tag, that's just incredibly redundant (and got pointed out as such in forum #266321). We just need a simple dove tag for white birds with a pigeon shape.

Also, did you think about searchability for the average user? Because your proposed set-up sounds like a complete pain in the ass to use compared to the current system of how we tag doves and pigeons. Not that this BUR would work, considering you can't mass update an already aliased away tag like "white dove", I don't think, but I still would like to know how you could ever expect the average person with limited bird knowledge how they could know and expect to use this set-up.

Maiden_in_Orange said:

We had explained the problem here several times now, and it still hold true here: We don't. Care about. Accurate zoology. Yes, a pigeon and a dove are biologically essentially the same thing, but very few people actually care about that on an imageboard site. The only thing that matters is that people can actually search for it.

The dove tag is not for realistic doves. It is for the common depiction in media (like anime) to portray a dove as a white bird. They are visually distinct and separate concepts, and we follow "tag what you see", not "tag what is most biologically accurate". And like it or not, but pigeons and doves are very much not the same thing, on a "tag what you see" principle. We don't need "white dove" as a tag, that's just incredibly redundant (and got pointed out as such in forum #266321). We just need a simple dove tag for white birds with a pigeon shape.

Also, did you think about searchability for the average user? Because your proposed set-up sounds like a complete pain in the ass to use compared to the current system of how we tag doves and pigeons. Not that this BUR would work, considering you can't mass update an already aliased away tag like "white dove", I don't think, but I still would like to know how you could ever expect the average person with limited bird knowledge how they could know and expect to use this set-up.

This is pretty much the exact opposite of what you're saying. The issues you mentioned are precisely why I made the BUR, it has nothing to do with zoology. "Dove" doesn't equal "white bird" in most peoples heads outside of danbooru tagging. Otherwise the peace symbol would be more often described as "a dove" rather than "a white dove", search "dove" on google right now and other than the brand "dove" you get various color birds. So "white_dove" is a better tag for white birds than just "dove" IMO. The only reason I mentioned the science of it was because of ravens and crows getting aliased for the same reason in topic #19614 and me wanting to alias them DESPITE it not necessarily being scientifically accurate.

The wiki for the "dove" tag even mentions that the terms are used interchangeably and has to specify it's for white birds on this site.

I also think it's a bit narrow-minded to assume that the average user intuitively considers 'dove' = white bird as the default kind of dove.
I've personally never seen a white dove in-person. If you mention doves to me the first thing that comes to mind would probably be a 'spotted dove' which is not white at all.
So I'm disappointed to see the qualified white_dove tag has been aliased away.

bipface said:

I also think it's a bit narrow-minded to assume that the average user intuitively considers 'dove' = white bird as the default kind of dove.
I've personally never seen a white dove in-person. If you mention doves to me the first thing that comes to mind would probably be a 'spotted dove' which is not white at all.
So I'm disappointed to see the qualified white_dove tag has been aliased away.

Exactly what I'm thinking. And the comment linked about the dove tag being predominantly white birds... that is after white dove was aliased to dove so of course it is. There are some posts of only white or only non white birds that were incorrectly tagged as both dove and pigeon eg, post #5806396 post #7023933 so I'll clean those but but in posts with multiple birds where one or more are white both tags should stay right? post #6709824 post #6518964

As for the purely technical aspects how about the BUR now?

Edit: The wiki says white or predominantly white birds but eh I am in doubt about post #3021205 (very pigeoney) and post #4835087.

Given the arguments, it seems that the only approach would be to deprecate the dove tag and force users to either use white_dove or pigeon. Having dove aliased to either of those tags would just cause issues.

I never said doves were always white in real life. I know they're not. That's why I specified in media, which typically portray them as white. That is why the specification regarding color is in both pigeon and dove's wikis. This is also why "white dove" is a terribly redundant tag. The unrealistic white dove seen in many of the images here is a "generic" dove, so to speak. For actual realistic doves you could find in real life, then you make a specific tag for that species in question (as they are not the norm compared to white doves). I have no idea why you would struggle with this. White doves in media are everywhere. That is what the dove tag is for.

I repeat: We don't tag realistic zoology. No, doves aren't typically white in real life. But it's useful to have a tag for pigeon-shaped birds that aren't obviously considered pigeons. That tag is dove. You have yet to convince me why we should embark on this doomed endeavor.

Also, you have failed to answer my question. Only addressed the part where I pointed out this BUR would've been impossible to approve. How exactly is the average member supposed to be expected to use this set-up compared to the much easier system of pigeon and dove?

Maiden_in_Orange said:

I never said doves were always white in real life. I know they're not. That's why I specified in media, which typically portray them as white. That is why the specification regarding color is in both pigeon and dove's wikis. This is also why "white dove" is a terribly redundant tag. The unrealistic white dove seen in many of the images here is a "generic" dove, so to speak. For actual realistic doves you could find in real life, then you make a specific tag for that species in question (as they are not the norm compared to white doves). I have no idea why you would struggle with this. White doves in media are everywhere. That is what the dove tag is for.

I repeat: We don't tag realistic zoology. No, doves aren't typically white in real life. But it's useful to have a tag for pigeon-shaped birds that aren't obviously considered pigeons. That tag is dove. You have yet to convince me why we should embark on this doomed endeavor.

Also, you have failed to answer my question. Only addressed the part where I pointed out this BUR would've been impossible to approve. How exactly is the average member supposed to be expected to use this set-up compared to the much easier system of pigeon and dove?

No offense but it seems like you aren't listening to what users here are saying? Or at the very least assuming everyone thinks the way you do. Noone is talking about tagging based on zoology or saying you think all IRL doves are white. The words dove and pigeon are used pretty interchangeably IRL, "dove" is just the generally more positive term which includes white doves among other things. Even if the term "dove" instantly conjures up white birds to you it doesn't do so for others. So white dove would be better tag for white birds of that shape.

GreyOmega said:

Given the arguments, it seems that the only approach would be to deprecate the dove tag and force users to either use white_dove or pigeon. Having dove aliased to either of those tags would just cause issues.

That is also an option, though I would prefer the alias to pigeon as they are the same thing and the terms are used interchangeably. I initially just wanted to rename it but the tag was too big for that.

BUR #23801 has been rejected.

remove alias white_dove -> dove
create alias dove -> white_dove
remove alias dove -> white_dove
create alias dove -> pigeon

Is this better technically?

War6t2 said:

No offense but it seems like you aren't listening to what users here are saying? Or at the very least assuming everyone thinks the way you do. Noone is talking about tagging based on zoology or saying you think all IRL doves are white. The words dove and pigeon are used pretty interchangeably IRL, "dove" is just the generally more positive term which includes white doves among other things. Even if the term "dove" instantly conjures up white birds to you it doesn't do so for others. So white dove would be better tag for white birds of that shape.

Okay, look, I'm going about this all wrong. I don't expect people to think like me on everything, nor should I. I was picking at the wrong thing here. That, I'll admit.

However, that just means the real problem here emerges: "white dove" is a fucking asinine tag compared to the normal dove tag. What would probably result is people begin mistagging doves as pigeons compared to just leaving dove as a tag be. The current system is working just fine, and the wikis make their intended uses very clear. Is anyone actually mistagging these? Because I'm not seeing any mistags on the first page at least. Don't break what doesn't need to be fixed.

War6t2 said:

Otherwise the peace symbol would be more often described as "a dove" rather than "a white dove", search "dove" on google right now and other than the brand "dove" you get various color birds. So "white_dove" is a better tag for white birds than just "dove" IMO.

I'm sorry but I disagree a DuckDuckGo search yeilds almost exclusively white birds with exactly one rock dove. It's mainly stuff like this, this, and "this"

Dove doesnt equate to white bird in most peoples minds, but it does equate to a specific type of white bird. I'm also against this because it multiple cultures around the world it has a lot of symbolic and religous significance being often associated with peace, purity, and pacifism, so much so that there is an entire Wikipedia page dedicated to doves as a symbol this is present in its depictions on danbooru post #6070307 post #6761439 post #6442024.

This kind of visual symbolism is just not present with pigeons and I dont like grouping them even if it's entomologically correct.

This bulk update request is pending automatic rejection in 5 days.

This bulk update request has been rejected because it was not approved within 45 days.

The bulk update request #23753 (forum #270665) has been rejected by @DanbooruBot.

This bulk update request has been rejected because it was not approved within 45 days.

The bulk update request #23801 (forum #270849) has been rejected by @DanbooruBot.