Grouping all non traditional halos together.

BUR #25311 is pending approval.

In an effort to separate blue archive and other "anime style" halos from traditional ones. See forum #277035 forum #273637

Per the wiki

Fake_halo

Fake halo (like that of a costume), usually supported by a visible rod, as in this example: post #5745591

Mechanical_halo

A halo that floats above a character's head by mechanical or technological means. Sometimes equipped with lights.

Mechanical_halo has over 600 pages and also catches fake traditional halos like post #6430602. Whereas mechanical_halo blue_archive makes up 300+ of those pages and is actual scifi looking robotic halos (mostly from two characters, but even when those to are removed from the search the results are still robotic halos). So for now I've filtered for that and some other nontraditional halos. The tag would have to be added manually later. A fake traditional halo as part of an angel costume is still a traditional halo, a flying mechanical disk with lights inside it is not. That's why it's not implied. Same reason for spiked_halo.

I'm not too certain if mechanical_halo and fake_halo should be mutually exclusive.

Imo the tag is to separate over designed or highly stylized anime halos from the traditional simple circle and/or glow behind head. Very simple spiked halos like post #5705733 post #7161344 are edge cases both because lines are sometimes used to draw light and I'm pretty sure there was some aspect of the "crown of thorns" Jesus wore that wound up bleeding into Abrahamic traditional halos from time to time. Something like post #5701374 however obviously is not. Color however means fuck all, post #900353 that's why it's not included.

Let's do this once and for all.

• Traditional_halo, nontraditional_halo, or both tags?
• Do we allow variations of the traditional shaped ones. Melting, mechanical, fake, ect?
• Can we do a easy implication BUR here? I vote the OP here be flexible and we all agree on something by the end which is the "real" one. Let's fine tune this!

I'm gonna abstain from voting till we nail a good definition down. But as for my opinion...

zetsubousensei said:

• Traditional_halo, nontraditional_halo, or both tags?

Well, looking at the first page for halo by itself, I'm seeing Blue Archive on all but one post (post #7459514). I personally do not care the outcome of this as long as a tag gets made, but going by prior discussion (and the fact that, well as you mentioned before, Blue Archive hype won't last forever), I'm going to assume nontraditional halo at least will end up be made. But like I said before, I could go any way.

• Do we allow variations of the traditional shaped ones. Melting, mechanical, fake, ect?

In my opinion, at the very least, color as the sole difference should not exclude a halo from being a traditional halo. There should be at least a little leeway on certain things. Same goes for if a halo that would otherwise qualify as traditional is depicted as broken or is fake. But that's all I'd give. Melting, mechanical, or anything more complex than a basic ring is by definition nontraditional.

• Can we do a easy implication BUR here? I vote the OP here be flexible and we all agree on something by the end which is the "real" one. Let's fine tune this!

That's most critical thing here. Not to mention if we decide a traditional halo tag is a good idea too, or even the superior option. We cannot move forward until these things are nailed down. This will also determine the flow of implications on things like red halo and fake halo, so we better figure something out.

Knowledge_Seeker said:

I'm gonna abstain from voting till we nail a good definition down. But as for my opinion...

Well, looking at the first page for halo by itself, I'm seeing Blue Archive on all but one post (post #7459514). I personally do not care the outcome of this as long as a tag gets made, but going by prior discussion (and the fact that, well as you mentioned before, Blue Archive hype won't last forever), I'm going to assume nontraditional halo at least will end up be made. But like I said before, I could go any way.

In my opinion, at the very least, color as the sole difference should not exclude a halo from being a traditional halo. There should be at least a little leeway on certain things. Same goes for if a halo that would otherwise qualify as traditional is depicted as broken or is fake. But that's all I'd give. Melting, mechanical, or anything more complex than a basic ring is by definition nontraditional.

Ditto, this is what I thought too. Though I wouldn't exclude dripping ones as it's still a very simple shape. That's why I didn't include blood halo. "nontraditional halo" was the name people liked the most on the previous bur. I was fine with terms like "complicated changes".

That's most critical thing here. Not to mention if we decide a traditional halo tag is a good idea too, or even the superior option. We cannot move forward until these things are nailed down. This will also determine the flow of implications on things like red halo and fake halo, so we better figure something out.

Traditional halo might lead to confusion with Aureole which is the term for the "holy glow" around someone behind their head. Unless we have both that and the "floating circle" under the same tag. Fun fact for anyone reading this that didn't read the previous one this all started because I wanted to make a tag for the "Aureole" being caused by the sun on shit with no wiki which got deprecated forum #274911. I'll edit this with a link by the time I think of a good name for that bur.

I think one issue with the OP BUR right now is the fact that a lot of the listed BUR has things like post #4400571 which are atypical in material but not in shape. I think we need a working definition of what traditional even is.

Knowledge_Seeker said:.
In my opinion, at the very least, color as the sole difference should not exclude a halo from being a traditional halo. There should be at least a little leeway on certain things. Same goes for if a halo that would otherwise qualify as traditional is depicted as broken or is fake. But that's all I'd give. Melting, mechanical, or anything more complex than a basic ring is by definition nontraditional.

I agree with this, and think that as long as it is a single basic ring shape it would fall under a traditional halo. Grouping these into a fav group might be the best option?

Anyone disagree and think the weird material is nontraditional?

zetsubousensei said:

I think one issue with the OP BUR right now is the fact that a lot of the listed BUR has things like post #4400571 which are atypical in material but not in shape. I think we need a working definition of what traditional even is.

I agree with this, and think that as long as it is a single basic ring shape it would fall under a traditional halo. Grouping these into a fav group might be the best option?

To be perfectly honest, I'd have much preferred if the favgroup method was used to begin with so we don't get weird errors from the false errors in the mass update.

Anyone disagree and think the weird material is nontraditional?

As for the question, I think discussing material is something that should come after we have a definition for what a traditional halo even is. Besides, most of the posts in these atypical material tags can be counted on one hand. I have no idea why we're even needing to discuss them when we haven't even nailed down what a nontraditional halo even is by our definition.

Knowledge_Seeker said:
As for the question, I think discussing material is something that should come after we have a definition for what a traditional halo even is. Besides, most of the posts in these atypical material tags can be counted on one hand. I have no idea why we're even needing to discuss them when we haven't even nailed down what a nontraditional halo even is by our definition.

Well thats what I'm trying to find out by asking about the material, but here are my two definitions and you can tell me if you agree, disagree, or would change something.

• Traditional: A single ring shaped halo often situated above the characters head. Traditionally yellow or white, but can come in any color. Depictions matching the single ring shape but made of of different materials, bone or metal, for instance would go here too.

• Nontraditional: Any shape or object which fulfills the role of a halo but doesn't match the definition of traditional halo or halo behind head. These halo's might come in multiple ring patterns, rectangular or triangle shapes, or be a flat disc.

zetsubousensei said:

Well thats what I'm trying to find out by asking about the material, but here are my two definitions and you can tell me if you agree, disagree, or would change something.

• Traditional: A single ring shaped halo often situated above the characters head. Traditionally yellow or white, but can come in any color. Depictions matching the single ring shape but made of of different materials, bone or metal, for instance would go here too.

• Nontraditional: Any shape or object which fulfills the role of a halo but doesn't match the definition of traditional halo or halo behind head. These halo's might come in multiple ring patterns, rectangular or triangle shapes, or be a flat disc.

Ah I see. My apologies, I misunderstood the question.

Hm...I'm not really sure about how I feel about atypical materials being considered traditional. I wouldn't oppose the idea in and of itself, but the halos in things like snowflake halo don't make me think "traditional halo but made of snowflakes", but more "snowflake-shaped halo". But then you have things like bone halo which are in fact rings above the head made of bone. So I'm kinda at a loss. Might have to be decided by a case by case basis depending on how they are used, but I'd generally consider myself more in favor of keeping them nontraditional.

Everything else is a definition I'd agree with for both.

+1 for only creating traditional halo, it's the outlier, the main reason for the topic and the tag wouldn't promote mintagging.

zetsubousensei said:

Depictions matching the single ring shape but made of of different materials, bone or metal, for instance would go here too.

A tag for traditional halo would also allow for this, if agreed, without the need for mass updates and clean ups.

Samsara_Kama said:

+1 for only creating traditional halo, it's the outlier, the main reason for the topic and the tag wouldn't promote mintagging.

It's only the mintag because of a single series, remove that single series and traditional halos appear to account for over 80% of all halo posts which would still put in as over 39k+ images of traditional halos. Without Blue Archive in the mix, it'd be faster to tag the nontraditional halos, and then tag what is left with traditional halo.

My personal thoughts:
- I think the current BUR is bad at the moment. I would rather keep things unaliased for now, figure out the umbrella tag in the first place, and decide what to garden and prune later. It would be like merging most horns tags under an "animal horns" tag.
- Although Blue Archive is the crux of this discussion, I think it's a bad idea to focus exclusively on it and ignoring other copyright tags. For example, executor_(arknights)'s halo tends to be tagged as a mechanical halo, and there's also andoain_(arknights)'s halo.
- +1 on making both traditional_halo and nontraditional_halo. This would immensely help for especially original characters, which cannot just be filtered by a -copytag search.

My proposal on the tags themselves, from the perspective of someone who would search for said tags:
- traditional_halo: A halo in the simple shape of a ring. Colour doesn't matter. Mutually exclusive with non-traditional_halo. If you want to be pedantic you could go for toroidal halo but let's not do that
- non-traditional_halo: Umbrella tag. Any halo that is not just a simple ring. A clear distinction that has little chance to be blurred and cause endless discussions. Beyond the ones with obviously different shapes, this would include any less obvious differences, such as melting halos, or, say, Oren Arknights's. Basically, again, anything that isn't just a simple ring. (However I am open to discussion)
- Various colour tags: White halo, golden halo, blue halo, etc. This would help search for traditional-er halos: A traditional halo + golden_halo search would only return golden traditional halos and avoid halos like arona's.

There are a few tags which could apply to both tags:
- broken_halo: A broken halo. It can be either a traditional broken halo or a non-traditional broken halo, as long as it is visibly broken.
- Then if one so wishes tilted halo, mini-halo, etc.

I hope this makes sense?

Login_to_view said:

I hope this makes sense?

You're making complete sense, and you have in fact summed up all my thoughts on this very topic beyond which tags to go for. This is a set-up that I personally would be satisfied with if we go down this route. I wasn't even sure of how to broach the topic of tags like broken halo or mini halo, tags that could apply to both, when we haven't even settled on if we're gonna do traditional and/or nontraditional yet.

But let's see what others have to say about this idea first. This feels like a discussion that could turn big.

Knowledge_Seeker said:

To be perfectly honest, I'd have much preferred if the favgroup method was used to begin with so we don't get weird errors from the false errors in the mass update.

As for the question, I think discussing material is something that should come after we have a definition for what a traditional halo even is. Besides, most of the posts in these atypical material tags can be counted on one hand. I have no idea why we're even needing to discuss them when we haven't even nailed down what a nontraditional halo even is by our definition.

Material differs by virtue of any visible material being significantly different than "vague glow" or "floating circle" which don't really have a "material" post #7451864, they're just lines post #7454499. The one exception being fake halos. That's why the floating led light strip looking halo post #7452453 of that one blue archive character featured a lot in mechanical_halo is still not traditional. If things like that aren't considered nontraditional halos the tag is pointless. I'm willing to concede dripping halos not being included if that means still filtering out weird objects floating in a circle.

GreyOmega said:

It's only the mintag because of a single series, remove that single series and traditional halos appear to account for over 80% of all halo posts which would still put in as over 39k+ images of traditional halos. Without Blue Archive in the mix, it'd be faster to tag the nontraditional halos, and then tag what is left with traditional halo.

That's not what I meant, specific tags being substituted for the umbrella by mintaggers can be ignored. Halo has 192k posts, halo -blue_archive -spiked_halo -mechanical_halo -star_halo -rectangular_halo -winged_halo -heart_halo -cruciform_halo -gear_halo -bone_halo -wreath_halo -snowflake_halo -chain_halo -rope_halo -cloud_halo -leaf_halo -melting_halo -fake_halo -halo_behind_head times me out, the specific tags are still small so the number of posts is probably just as high, but I can't say for certain traditional halos count for 80% of the tag. From what I can see in the pages, we have posts with all sorts of halos in between missing specific tags, however I'm wrong for calling it the outlier without data.

I don't like the nontraditional_halo tag idea because the overlap between it and halo would be way too large. Various non traditional halos already account for a large majority of posts under the halo tag, as far as I can see.

I would support creating traditional_halo tag and using halo as a catch all. We keep the specific halo type tags, even if they are small, and implicate them directly to halo, along with traditional halo of course.

As much as I still don't really see much of a point in nontraditional halo, I'd definitely take that over any sort of traditional halo tag. A tag for "the normal kind" is both kind of ridiculous and asking for it to be undertagged (since, when taggingm you generally don't think about tagging base cases like this). I have downvoted the BUR mainly because I don't think this can be properly done in an automated way.

The renaissance era depiction of a halo being a ring floating above the head is already untraditional itself.

uohuo said:

The renaissance era depiction of a halo being a ring floating above the head is already untraditional itself.

It is traditional for today's standards.
The traditional-er "holy aura" can just be tagged as aureola, and an utility alias "halo_(aureola) -> aureola" can be made.
At the moment we cannot afford to be pedantic.

Login_to_view said:

The traditional-er "holy aura" can just be tagged as aureola

That's one literally un-holy typo away from being problematic.

(Agreed that we should be going by "today's" standards)

岩戸鈴芽 said:

That's one literally un-holy typo away from being problematic.

(Agreed that we should be going by "today's" standards)

I don't want that tag either for the same reason. But if we absolutely must it should imply halo as the idea of it not showing up when searching it is just stupid.