[APPROVED] Tag alias: super_smash_bros._ultimate -> super_smash_bros.

We probably should remove super_smash_bros._ultimate from some characters introduced in earlier games.

post #3419291 is about Palutena, which is tagged super_smash_bros._ultimate. If we tagged according to the SSB debut, basically Palutena posts should be tagged super_smash_bros._for_nintendo_3ds_and_wii (not Ultimate).

Under the same principle, Wii Fit Trainer posts should also be tagged super_smash_bros._for_nintendo_3ds_and_wii (not Ultimate).

Admittedly, the original Tumblr link uses "#smash bros ultimate" as a hashtag, so that post really was intended by the artist to be a Ultimate art. But this goes against the "tag what you see" principle. That is, I wouldn't like to give the chance for basically the same posts to get different copyright tags solely based on their Tumblr hashtags or descriptions.

It also raises the question of why can't we find all posts of Palutena and other super_smash_bros._for_nintendo_3ds_and_wii fighters by using that tag.

Should all SSB posts with Pikachu be tagged super_smash_bros._(classic)? Basically this also means that a full team-up of Ultimate fighters would get tagged with all the 6 SSB tags: super_smash_bros., super_smash_bros._(classic), super_smash_bros._brawl, super_smash_bros._melee, super_smash_bros._for_nintendo_3ds_and_wii and super_smash_bros._ultimate.

On the other hand, we could use the groups as a rule: post #3178922 is about Wii Fit Trainer (which debuted in "for Nintendo 3DS" and "for Wii U") and Zero Suit Samus (which debuted in "Brawl", not counting the armored Samus). That post then should probably be tagged super_smash_bros._for_nintendo_3ds_and_wii because this game came later. In other words, even though Zero Suit Samus already existed in Brawl, she coulnd't find Wii Fit Trainer there.

Once again, this raises the question of why can't we find all posts of Zero Suit Samus and other super_smash_bros._brawl fighters by using that tag.

Danielx21 said:

We probably should remove super_smash_bros._ultimate from some characters introduced in earlier games.

post #3419291 is about Palutena, which is tagged super_smash_bros._ultimate. If we tagged according to the SSB debut, basically Palutena posts should be super_smash_bros._for_nintendo_3ds_and_wii (not Ultimate).

Under the same principle, Wii Fit Trainer posts should also be super_smash_bros._for_nintendo_3ds_and_wii (not Ultimate).

Admittedly, the original Tumblr link uses "#smash bros ultimate" as a tag, so that post really was intended by the artist to be a Ultimate art. But this goes against the "tag what you see" principle. It also raises the question of why can't we find all posts of Palutena and other super_smash_bros._for_nintendo_3ds_and_wii fighters by using that tag.

Should all SSB posts with Pikachu be tagged super_smash_bros._(classic)? Basically this also means that a full team-up of Ultimate fighters would get tagged with all the 6 SSB tags: super_smash_bros., super_smash_bros._(classic), super_smash_bros._brawl, super_smash_bros._melee, super_smash_bros._for_nintendo_3ds_and_wii and super_smash_bros._ultimate.

On the other hand, we could use the groups as a rule: post #3178922 is about Wii Fit Trainer (which debuted in "for Nintendo 3DS" and "for Wii U") and Zero Suit Samus (which debuted in "Brawl", not counting the armored Samus). That post then should probably be tagged super_smash_bros._for_nintendo_3ds_and_wii because this game came later. In other words, even though Zero Suit Samus already existed in Brawl, she coulnd't find Wii Fit Trainer there.

Once again, this raises the question of why can't we find all posts of Zero Suit Samus and other super_smash_bros._brawl fighters by using that tag.

To the average user, this is a very confusing system to use. They would have to check the original post's upload date, make sure the artist actually drew it soon before they posted it, know what date every game in the series came out and which characters made their debut in each individual game, then do the mental gymnastics required to decide which ones apply and which don't.
This is the kind of stuff that puts me off learning how to tag something like the Fate series, which by many accounts is a headache even when you know how it's supposed to be tagged. I'd much rather avoid this kind of convolution if possible.

When it comes down to it, compared to everything the individual games have in common there is a rather small amount of things that make them unique. This is why I don't think we should use individual game tags and that all we need is the super_smash_bros..

(The new fighters are inarguably the most "unique" thing about each new game, but as soon as a new character comes back in a later game then they lose any of that uniqueness they once had. And considering the fact that tagging fighters with individual games would result in a confusing bowl of tag spaghetti, I don't think they should be considered as a part of this discussion, much like the impact that individual Pokémon have on their respective games.)

Not sure if what I said was that horribly confusing given that people are pushing in the direction of trying to tag when a character first appeared. When I mentioned retaining the tags, it was only upon the understanding that there is differences between the designs (outfits) of characters between the games, not which characters appear in which games (as stated we're going to have repeats of these characters all down the future versions in the series). The only variant between appearances so far is the one that I myself brought up, which is easily differentiated by the Zelda game tags. If there are no other examples of similar to warrant distinguishing between the games, I'm going to go ahead and approve this alias.

NWF_Renim said:

Not sure if what I said was that horribly confusing given that people are pushing in the direction of trying to tag when a character first appeared. When I mentioned retaining the tags, it was only upon the understanding that there is differences between the designs (outfits) of characters between the games, not which characters appear in which games (as stated we're going to have repeats of these characters all down the future versions in the series). The only variant between appearances so far is the one that I myself brought up, which is easily differentiated by the Zelda game tags. If there are no other examples of similar to warrant distinguishing between the games, I'm going to go ahead and approve this alias.

I can't speak for others, but for one I think that this alias should probably be approved.

Just to be clear, I wouldn't like to tag when a character first appeared. In my message above, I was just basically criticizing the current state of super_smash_bros._ultimate. We currently have some kind of special treatment for Ultimate. My intention was tallking about what would happen if we tried to treat all the SSB tags the same way.

I believe these two points are important:

• SSB posts with characters truly introduced in Ultimate like Isabelle, Inkling or Incineroar seem to be usually tagged super_smash_bros._ultimate.

• To add insult to injury, some earlier characters such as Wii Fit Trainer, Shulk and Palutena are also often getting the tag super_smash_bros._ultimate for some reason.

As a thought experiment, I will invent a fake game: say, "Super Smash Bros. Supreme" will be released in 2022, with all the characters from previous games (including Ultimate), with the addition of a couple dozens of new characters. Let's assume that Conker (the squirrel from Conker's Bad Fur Day) will appear in that new SSB, even though he never appeared in SSB before. What would happen then?

If the tag super_smash_bros._ultimate still exists when "Super Smash Bros. Supreme" is released, then we will basically have these options:

1- Tag according to temporary uniqueness. I know that's silly, but it's basically what is currently happening. We delete super_smash_bros._ultimate entirely because Isabelle, Inkling, Incineroar, etc. are not unique to Ultimate anymore, they now appear in two games. Then we start tagging "Supreme" fighters like Conker with super_smash_bros._supreme, at least until another new game is released.

2- Tag according to game debut. We keep Isabelle, Inkling and Incineroar tagged as super_smash_bros._ultimate, while new fighters like Conker are tagged super_smash_bros._supreme. It stands to reason that all games would have the same treatment, so Ice Climbers would be super_smash_bros._melee, Diddy Kong would be super_smash_bros._brawl and so on.

3- Just alias all the games and use super_smash_bros. (/ssb) for everything. If people want to search for characters that appear in certain games, they can simply search for the characters directly. If I want to see SSB posts featuring Falco or Ganondorf, there's no need to search super_smash_bros._melee which is their debut. I can just search for: falco_lombardi /ssb or ganondorf /ssb.

NWF_Renim said:

When I mentioned retaining the tags, it was only upon the understanding that there is differences between the designs (outfits) of characters between the games, not which characters appear in which games (as stated we're going to have repeats of these characters all down the future versions in the series). The only variant between appearances so far is the one that I myself brought up, which is easily differentiated by the Zelda game tags. If there are no other examples of similar to warrant distinguishing between the games, I'm going to go ahead and approve this alias.

I don't believe any of the characters other than Zelda have a notable design change in one or more of the games.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to make a pool (or pools) for posts referencing the story/campaign modes in Brawl and Ultimate. I can imagine people wanting to search for those specific aspects of the game, so having pools for them would allow for that without making the entire series' tagging a convoluted mess.

To be honest, there is no need to tag every single SSB.

The first and Melee have nothing unique from our current point of view. Same is for WiiU and 3DS. But Brawl came up with a Story Modus inclusive tag partners like ZSS and Pikachu. I would only tag Brawl and Ultimate as specific games as Pixiv already does it. For me, it's a great help in this chaotic Crossover series with all its franchise to find fanarts easier I'm interested in.

AngryZapdos said:

I don't believe any of the characters other than Zelda have a notable design change in one or more of the games.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to make a pool (or pools) for posts referencing the story/campaign modes in Brawl and Ultimate. I can imagine people wanting to search for those specific aspects of the game, so having pools for them would allow for that without making the entire series' tagging a convoluted mess.

Marqant said:

To be honest, there is no need to tag every single SSB.

The first and Melee have nothing unique from our current point of view. Same is for WiiU and 3DS. But Brawl came up with a Story Modus inclusive tag partners like ZSS and Pikachu. I would only tag Brawl and Ultimate as specific games as Pixiv already does it. For me, it's a great help in this chaotic Crossover series with all its franchise to find fanarts easier I'm interested in.

Most posts currently tagged super_smash_bros._ultimate are not referencing the story mode. They tend to be really about whether characters which debuted in Ultimate appear. (Not to mention some earlier characters like Palutena, Wii Fit Trainer, etc., apparently by mistake.)

If we want to see posts about the story mode, the current super_smash_bros._ultimate does not seem to help much.

Even if we deleted most posts from super_smash_bros._ultimate and kept only the ones that strictly reference the story mode, the existence of that tag will always be an invitation to tag posts that merely have characters from that game.

Creating a pool for the story mode looks like an excellent idea to me.

The tag alias super_smash_bros._ultimate -> super_smash_bros. (forum #155209) has been approved by @NWF_Renim.

The tag alias super_smash_bros._ultimate -> super_smash_bros. (forum #155209) has conflicting wiki pages. super_smash_bros. should be updated to include information from super_smash_bros._ultimate if necessary.

@NWF_Renim: Thanks for approving this request.

There's a weird side effect, though: super_smash_bros._ultimate is aliased but still also implied at the same time.

Here's a request to fix that by removing the implication: forum #155213.

The bulk update request #1963 (forum #155213) has been approved by @NWF_Renim.

I don't get it, we should tag ultimate or not?

TomReidem said:

I don't get it, we should tag ultimate or not?

@TomReidem - No, we shouldn't. And now it's aliased so we're not able to tag Ultimate anymore, which in my opinion was the right thing to do.

To repeat a bit of the arguments above, we shouldn't use the Ultimate tag because there's a lot of overlap between the various SSB games. The Ultimate tag was largely populated by posts containing new characters introduced in Ultimate such as Shizue (Isabelle), Inkling and Incineroar. Not to mention earlier characters such as Wii Fit Trainer and Palutena, apparently tagged Ultimate by mistake. Anyway, new SSB games will most certainly be released sooner or later reusing the same characters, so we can't expect to have any characters unique to Ultimate for long.

If someone wants to search for SSB art featuring characters introduced in Ultimate, they can simply use the SSB tag (/ssb) and any character tag directly:

• /ssb shizue_(doubutsu_no_mori)
• /ssb incineroar
• /ssb inkling
• etc.

See also list of super smash bros. characters.

So now what about pieces that specifically reference Ultimate (e.g. post #3276152)?

It was already implied to the series, as it should be. We had a way to specify that this piece was based on Ultimate, and now you've taken that away.

The argument that none of the games have unique identifying features was bogus before and is bogus now.

Some idiots misapplying a tag is not a good reason to do away with the tag. This was a poor decision.

DarknetJin said:

The argument that none of the games have unique identifying features was bogus before and is bogus now.

The argument wasn't about whether the games themselves had unique identifying features, it was about how a majority of the Super Smash Bros. posts on Danbooru do not incorporate these unique identifying features and could therefore be about any Super Smash Bros. game that featured the same character(s).

DarknetJin said:

Some idiots misapplying a tag is not a good reason to do away with the tag. This was a poor decision.

It wasn't just a few posts being incorrectly tagged - around half of the posts that used to be tagged with super_smash_bros._ultimate only featured fighters with no reference to Ultimate as a specific title. And again, posts with characters that only appear in Ultimate will no longer be applicable only to Ultimate if a new Smash Bros game comes out featuring characters introduced in Ultimate. It's the same scenario as Pokémon - the individual creatures do not warrant specific game tags because they appear in many of the games, not just the ones they were introduced in.

And still, neither of those arguments make a case for killing the tag.

Would we do away with the tags for Pokémon Gold and Silver just because posts with Pichu aren't always about Gold and Silver?

Would we do away with the tag for Street Fighter II just because the characters appear in later SF games too?

AngryZapdos said:

It wasn't just a few posts being incorrectly tagged - around half of the posts that used to be tagged with super_smash_bros._ultimate only featured fighters with no reference to Ultimate as a specific title.

I agree that there's no reason for such a post to be tagged for Ultimate. Sounds like a reason to strip the tag from post and tell the idiots to quit misapplying it, not nuke the tag.

DarknetJin said:

And still, neither of those arguments make a case for killing the tag.

Would we do away with the tags for Pokémon Gold and Silver just because posts with Pichu aren't always about Gold and Silver?

Would we do away with the tag for Street Fighter II just because the characters appear in later SF games too?

I have no knowledge of the Street Fighter series or how it is tagged, but the individual main series Pokémon games all have characters, worlds and stories as well as the individual Pokémon themselves. If each Pokémon game only consisted of PVP battle modes, then we would quite likely not use individual game tags for each new instalment. In terms of meaningfully unique content in individual Smash Bros. games, the series has... Brawl and Ultimate's story modes. The other game modes are almost all present in more than one Smash game and almost never referenced in fanart.

I did suggest making pools for Brawl and Ultimate's story modes - I can see a good number of users actually wanting to search for that. I don't think there'd be any opposition to the creation of such pools.

DarknetJin said:

I agree that there's no reason for such a post to be tagged for Ultimate. Sounds like a reason to strip the tag from post and tell the idiots to quit misapplying it, not nuke the tag.

Many users were doing this to many posts. It wouldn't have been feasible to go through the entire backlog of posts with that tag and keep a watchful eye on every new post to make sure people were using it properly - a lot of work would have been required and I am fairly sure nobody would have wanted to do it.