Father and Daughter- Saber and Saber_Red

I was browsing through the faith_(series) images when I noticed that a lot of images with Mordred and her father in them are tagged as "mother and daughter", but this is incorrect. Being a son or a daughter is based on what gender the other person is true, but whether said person is the father or the mother, should be based on the actual conception.

This is because you can only be a father if you "father" somebody, and only be a mother if you give birth.

So the images should not be tagged as "mother_and_daughter", because Arutoria sired/fathered Mordred. The images should tagged as "father_and_daughter".

I thought it was as simple as "women are mothers, men are fathers"

Take mother_and_daughter to mean "female parent and female child", lets not overthink this.

fossilnix said:

I thought it was as simple as "women are mothers, men are fathers"

That does not work due to genderswap. In the case of a child having changed gender, they would no longer be considered a son if they were female all of a sudden. The reason for this is that the term son/daughter is designated due to what said child is to the parent.
However the parent designator such as father/mother, is not necessarily chained to the original gender since one can "father/sire" or "mother/give birth". These terms are determined by who gave birth and who sired.
I.E take for instance a fanon couple where both parents changed genders. However it was the genderswapped female to male character that gave birth to the child. If said parent is in the image with their child, could you call them father and child if the character was male in the picture? No, because that would not be the case. The character would have given birth to the child after all.

NWF_Renim said:

Take mother_and_daughter to mean "female parent and female child", lets not overthink this.

But she did not give birth to Mordred. It isn't complicated.

Would you expect two female characters to show up when you search for father_and_daughter? Tags generally exist to make search easier, that's where the rule of "tag what you see" originates from.

These terms are determined by who gave birth and who sired.

What makes you so sure? Fortunately(?), our world doesn't have magical futas, so the language isn't adapted to reflect that. Yet. It soon would be possible to construct an embryo using genetic information from two lesbian women and have one of them bear the child. According to your logic, would that make one of these women a father? I wouldn't be so sure, I'd expect "two mothers" routine to take place like it is now for same-sex families with adopted children.

After all, Saber never was a man. It might be easier to think about Mordred having two mothers, except one of them had a dick at some point of time because Merlin.

Type-kun said:

Would you expect two female characters to show up when you search for father_and_daughter? Tags generally exist to make search easier, that's where the rule of "tag what you see" originates from.

But how can you see that two characters are even related to begin with? The whole "tag what you can see" if applied like this would mean that we could never actually tag any images with siblings, brothers, sisters ect ect ect

Type-kun said:
What makes you so sure?

What constitutes as a biological father:
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/biological-parent

What constitutes as a daughter:
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/daughter?s=t

Type-kun said:
Fortunately(?), our world doesn't have magical futas, so the language isn't adapted to reflect that. Yet. It soon would be possible to construct an embryo using genetic information from two lesbian women and have one of them bear the child. According to your logic, would that make one of these women a father? I wouldn't be so sure, I'd expect "two mothers" routine to take place like it is now for same-sex families with adopted children.

Yes, if sperm was produced from the woman then I would say she was the father.

Type-kun said:
After all, Saber never was a man. It might be easier to think about Mordred having two mothers, except one of them had a dick at some point of time because Merlin.

It was never stated if Saber was fully turned into a man or if she just grew a dick and a set of testicles when she sired Mordred... but it really doesn't matter. By definition if she sired somebody, then she would be that persons father.

Setsunator said:

But how can you see that two characters are even related to begin with? The whole "tag what you can see" if applied like this would mean that we could never actually tag any images with siblings, brothers, sisters ect ect ect

I don't see it this way.
If a character is canonically(?) related to another character then it is implied within the tagging that those tags are going to be used. If nothing else is stated in the picture itself of course.
So one does simply have to know which gender the persons in the picture have and how they are related to each other.

Provence said:
If a character is canonically(?) related to another character then it is implied within the tagging that those tags are going to be used.

And Arhoria/Saber is canonically Mordred's father.

Provence said:
So one does simply have to know which gender the persons in the picture have and how they are related to each other.

So, stuff we know even though it isn't visible in an image should be tagged? I.E all images of say demons that look like humans should be tagged as demons then? Same with vampires ect ect etc?

Provence said:
If nothing else is stated in the picture itself of course.

You mean as somebody holding a sign?

Tags generally operate by encapsulating a concept and what that concept is based on impacts how tagging operates. Problems occur because a tag can be encapsulating a concept that has several means of determination. These family relationship tags for one are based on several different determinations and as such are quite a mess. In the case of mother_and_daughter you have it used based on a purely visual basis (adult woman with child or baby girl), knowledge (Nishizumi Shiho is the mother Nishizumi Miho), visual & knowledge (that older Ise with the young girl Ise, who of course both look similar outside of age), etc.

The one core principle shared by these relationships is a visual principle of the genders visually depicted by these tags, as defined by how users have been using these tags, in short the universal concept of these tags is a visual basis. In the case of father and daughter it is the expectation that there is one male and one female depicted in the image, thus the relationship between Saber and Saber of Red can not receive the father and daughter tag because it fails to meet this minimum criterion.

NWF_Renim said:
In the case of father and daughter it is the expectation that there is one male and one female depicted in the image, thus the relationship between Saber and Saber of Red can not receive the father and daughter tag because it fails to meet this minimum criterion.

No actually, according to the rules you just quoted:

** Ex: Gender-based tags (in relation to one-shot characters). Decided based on visual information, but can be overridden based on knowledge (particularly "word of god" from the artist). A character appears female, but artist says it's a boy, well then it's a boy.

word of god says Artoria is Mordreds father. There is nothing in any images of Mordred and Artoria that can be used as a basis of claiming that Artoria was Mordred mother. A father is somebody that sires an offspring, a mother somebody that conceives it -- thus unless the image depicts a person actually giving birth, we can only base the "mother/father" tags based on word of god.

If the image depicts a woman, she's a mother

Tag what you see, not what you know. Simple as that.

fossilnix said:
If the image depicts a woman, she's a mother

So you are saying that all girls are mothers? that make no sense.

Sacriven said:
Tag what you see, not what you know. Simple as that.

Again no, then we can't tag any images with mother/father/sister/brother/sibling. These tags are based on informed knowledge. not visual information.

Lets start again from "Tags generally operate by encapsulating a concept" and break down how the relationship tag has been operating to reach what is and isn't appropriate for it. To start with we look at what the core concept of the tag is, which going through the tag is evidently the concept of "male parent and female child", and not "sired parent and female child". Male parent versus sired parent can be determined by the fact that users have been guiding images like Saber with Saber of Red to the mother_and_daughter tag, as opposed to the father_and_daughter tag, even amongst users who know their actual relationship. Given this the break down of rules (as currently used) for the tag is as follows:

• Requirement 1) 1 male and 1 female character depicted together
• 1A) Visual (can be superseded by knowledge, but only if it results in 1B or 1C) - characters are visually determined and judged to be male and female.
• 1B) Knowledge (can be superseded by Visual, but only if it results in 1A or 1C) - "Word of god" says the characters are known to be male and female.
• 1C) Visual & Knowledge - One character is visually determined to be male or female and the other character is "known" to be the opposite gender.
• Requirement 2) Characters have or appear to have a parent and child relationship
• 2A) Visual Only - male is an adult and the female is younger, depicted in a situation, environment, interaction, or text that would suggest a parent/child relationship
• 2B) Visual Only - male is an adult and the female is significantly younger, both share visual traits such as hair color, hair style, and facial features
• 2C) Knowledge Only - "Word of god" says the male is the parent of the female or the female is the daughter of the male
• 2D) Knowledge Superseded by Visual - Character is "known" to not have a child, but visual information indicates the character is their child. Vice versa also applicable.

Given these rules, as we follow criteria #1 and it requires that one individual has to be male and one has to be female, it is therefore incorrect to tag Saber and Saber of Red images as "Father and Daughter" as both individuals are female as determined by "word of god". Whether one character sired or birthed another character is information that is relevant to the determination of the second requirement, but holds no bearing on the first requirement.

Long story short: The father_and_daughter tag is built around the concept of "male parent with female child". The tag places importance on gender as depicted or "known" at the time the image depicts and their depicted or "known" connection or relationship. If both requirements aren't met, then the tag is not applicable.

Your problem is with the de facto requirement #1, and if you wish to add Saber and Saber of Red images then you're going to need to justify why your change makes sense over the current usage. Particularly what gain this change makes that improves the "father and daughter" tag, as it from a visual standpoint blurs the lines between it and the "mother and daughter" tags.

Setsunator said:

So you are saying that all girls are mothers? that make no sense.

Again no, then we can't tag any images with mother/father/sister/brother/sibling. These tags are based on informed knowledge. not visual information.

You're overthinking it, really. When non-member Danbooru visitor enters the father_and_daughter tag, they expects pictures with 1 male and 1 female, not 2 females. Not all Danbooru visitors have particular knowledge about Fate series, and this will cause some confusion among visitors.

IIRC, there are terms and rules that describes this kind of case, but I'm forgot which one.

As a question; We don't seem to have tags for it, but do the father_and_daughter and other parent/child tags apply to characters with adoptive parents? Because if they do that A) could show how biological factors don't explicitly tie in with the tag, and B) show that we can tag characters as a father or mother without having either sired or given birth to the character in question.

On a related subject, how should futanari characters be treated with regard to parent-child relationship tags? Consider post #972904 and post #2203709 (both explicit), which feature families with a futanari "father". Both are tagged mother and daughter but one is tagged father and daughter. Some consistency would be appreciated.

Personally, I can't support using the father and daughter or father and son tags for characters that appear female (however butch they look, all of the characters in the posts I linked to would be tagged 1girl if appearing alone), regardless of their genitals.

Saduharta said:
Do the father_and_daughter and other parent/child tags apply to characters with adoptive parents?

Not from what I can see no. A custodian isn't necessarily a parent.

Saduharta said:
Because if they do that A) could show how biological factors don't explicitly tie in with the tag

Actually, that wouldn't necessarily mean anything. If people have incorrectly used a tag, why would that suddenly make the incorrect use of a tag correct?

Sacriven said:
You're overthinking it, really. When non-member Danbooru visitor enters the father_and_daughter tag, they expects pictures with 1 male and 1 female, not 2 females.

Non-members expect a lot of things. There are plenty of Danbooru tags that make no sense that you have too look up in the wikia. This doesn't matter. The tags are there to give us information, not to cater to people.

Sacriven said:
Not all Danbooru visitors have particular knowledge about Fate series, and this will cause some confusion among visitors.

And when they are confused, as always they can just go check the wikia.

NWF_Renim said:
To start with we look at what the core concept of the tag is, which going through the tag is evidently the concept of "male parent and female child", and not "sired parent and female child".

Again, being a male and being the parent doesn't make it the father. Say character A is the father of character B -- this makes him a male parent. But he is in an image with character C. Should this now be tagged as Father_and_son? Of course it shouldn't. He is a male parent but not the father of the child. The designation "father" is one designated by how character A is related to character C. I.E what determines what tag he/she gets is the relation it shares. Being a father is determined if you sired -- if he didn't then he wouldn't be a father.

NWF_Renim said:
Male parent versus sired parent can be determined by the fact that users have been guiding images like Saber with Saber of Red to the mother_and_daughter tag, as opposed to the father_and_daughter tag, even amongst users who know their actual relationship.

Are you really going to use that fallacy? A lot of users have used a tag -- therefor I am right?

Also, generally speaking users will tag an image with what it was already tagged as and how other users have tagged stuff in a place. The users police themselves unknowingly, unwittingly aware that they are creating the very problem that they see.

NWF_Renim said:
Given this the break down of rules (as currently used) for the tag is as follows:

• Requirement 1) 1 male and 1 female character depicted together
• 1A) Visual (can be superseded by knowledge, but only if it results in 1B or 1C) - characters are visually determined and judged to be male and female.
• 1B) Knowledge (can be superseded by Visual, but only if it results in 1A or 1C) - "Word of god" says the characters are known to be male and female.

** 1C) Visual & Knowledge - One character is visually determined to be male or female and the other character is "known" to be the opposite gender.

1C) is true. Saber was male or at least had a penis when siring Mordred.
This leaves us with:

1A) is only true if 1B) and 1C) is true

1B) is only true if 1C and !A is true.

1A gives us no information as it is only based on B and C
1B is only based on 1A and 1C

Thus only 1C determine the result.

The wikia itself says:

mother and daughter

Posts showing a mother and her daughter. It can be one of two identifiable things:

* A young girl (child or teen) and an older woman (at least middle-aged) side-by-side, or
* Two characters from a named series known to be mother and daughter.

father and daughter

Posts showing a father and his daughter. It can be one of two identifiable things:

* A young girl (child or teen) and an older man (at least middle-aged) side-by-side, or
* Two characters from a named series known to be father and daughter.

So again, the rules support what I am saying as is the wikia.

NWF_Renim said:
Given these rules, as we follow criteria #1 and it requires that one individual has to be male and one has to be female

But Saber was male when siring Mordred, that's the whole issue here. The "word of god" tells us this.

NWF_Renim said:
both individuals are female as determined by "word of god".

Currently yes, but that was not always the case. but this raises an interesting question; if a fan drew a male parent in an image suddenly turning into a for that one image and it is even stated in the image that it is just for that one moment the image is shown... should that character be tagged as "Mother"? Maybe? and then in the same image the real mother also appears? So there would be two mothers? Well, there is no such tag so that wouldn't be confusing... but what about the husband_and_wife tag? these aren't affected by the rule right? So we would end up with an image that just had the tags husband_and_wife and mother_and_child... which in turn now would call into question whether or not the child was related to both parents?

NWF_Renim said:
Long story short: The father_and_daughter tag is built around the concept of "male parent with female child". The tag places importance on gender as depicted or "known" at the time the image depicts and their depicted or "known" connection or relationship. If both requirements aren't met, then the tag is not applicable.

The tag however is based on reality and would be very sound if it wasn't for stuff like genderswap and futanari and other means in whcih fantasy characters can procreate. But as is, the images don't fill the criteria to be tagged as "mother_and_daughter" since word of god tell us otherwise.

NWF_Renim said:
Your problem is with the de facto requirement #1, and if you wish to add Saber and Saber of Red images then you're going to need to justify why your change makes sense over the current usage.

Umm what? are you telling me I am forbidden to add Artoria and Mordred images until I have convinced you that I am right?

NWF_Renim said:
Particularly what gain this change makes that improves the "father and daughter" tag, as it from a visual standpoint blurs the lines between it and the "mother and daughter" tags.

It doesn't blur, it becomes fact oriented instead of "made up" oriented. Lets call that Chinese person a Japanese because he is wearing a Samurai outfit! Lets ignore that we know that he is Chinese, he looks like a Japanese so we will refer to him as such.

Information spreads on the Internet and it mutates. When you tag a father as a mother, this lie spreads. So there you have one reason. Another one would be the whole issue with "husband_and_wife". As is I find it far more confusing when images are tagged with incorrect information.

When I search an image and I see what I thought was a female character tagged as 1boy, I check if there is a genderswap tag... when there isn't I check the characters name, thus learning about the character. It isn't that hard really. However if I see a tag that says mother_and_son, why would I check the wikia if no genderswap tag was added? How would I get the correct info? And thus, until I watch/read the things far off into the future I wouldn't know... and the misinformation would spread. We already have a great source of misinformation on the Internet... it is called Wikipedia, and trust me -- you don't want to be like that cancerous place. Stand up for facts, show people that Danbooru can be trusted and that they give real information.

iridescent_slime said:
On a related subject, how should futanari characters be treated with regard to parent-child relationship tags?

Ah here you go NWF_Renim, here you have an example as to why father and mother should be determined in tags based on if they sired of conceived. A futanari has both a penis and a pussy... so we can only go by word of god here. But a futanari is neither female nor male. Well IRL they are, but these special anime/manga futanari are able to both have children and sire them. So the issue can only be resolved by word of god... which is why:

iridescent_slime said:
Consider post #972904 and post #2203709 (both explicit), which feature families with a futanari "father". Both are tagged mother and daughter but one is tagged father and daughter. Some consistency would be appreciated.

This confusion comes from. The designated tags are wholly determined by if they sired of conceived -- but when this only applies to such magical creatures as futanari and not to say genderswap... and not to people that were futanari at the time of siring but then turned into a female... this creates irregularities and confusion.

iridescent_slime said:
Personally, I can't support using the father and daughter or father and son tags for characters that appear female (however butch they look, all of the characters in the posts I linked to would be tagged 1girl if appearing alone), regardless of their genitals.

And that would be incorrect. Futanari aren't necessarily females. I'm not saying there is some magical third gender IRL (there is NOT), but what I am saying is that there are many biological factors that determine what gender we are. Thus a male could develop breasts and even a pussy but his genome would be that of a male... as well could a female develop male characteristics. They are referred to as binary -- but that only means that it is hard to determine what they are.

This of course is why with the whole "tag what you see" rule we can't tag them as female or male. They certainly don't look like females and they don't look like males. They look like both. But unless we have a word of god that says "this futanari is female" and "this futanari is male", they could be either. So tagging them as either gender would be confusing. In the end this leaves us with not taging them as male or female at all. See this is why we have the "futa_on_male" and the "futa_on_female" tag.

Setsunator said:

Not from what I can see no. A custodian isn't necessarily a parent. Actually, that wouldn't necessarily mean anything. If people have incorrectly used a tag, why would that suddenly make the incorrect use of a tag correct?

Two notes here; 1) Danbooru has neither a custodian tag nor adoptive_parent/adoptive_father/adoptive_mother tags. So thete's no precedent to say it's an incorrect use of the tag. And 2) I don't know how many people you know that are adopted, but none of them I know call their adoptive parents their "custodians". Only one I know even bothers with the distinction between birth parents and adoptive patents because they happen to know both. Most just call their adoptive parents their parents. Because to most of them, parents are the people that raised you and you grew up thinking of as your family.

So what is "incorrect" about tagging someone and their adoptive father as "father and child" now?

Saduharta said:
Two notes here; 1) Danbooru has neither a custodian tag nor adoptive_parent/adoptive_father/adoptive_mother tags. So thete's no precedent to say it's an incorrect use of the tag.

Neither does Danbooru have a tag for communist. It has one for Commuism but not for the communists themselves. Does this mean that we can apply the tag communist to characters that have communists views? Or should it only be applied to characters that wear communist clothes and uniforms? We have no precedent here either. See what you are doing here is a classic: "we don't have anything that says I am wrong; thus proving I am right". But that's a fallacy dude.

Saduharta said:
And 2) I don't know how many people you know that are adopted, but none of them I know call their adoptive parents their "custodians".

Doesn't matter, that is what they are by law if they have adopted the child. They are legal custidians and legal guardians. They could be called "parents", but they aren't mother and father. If your uncle adopted you, would that make him your father all of a sudden? No it would not. You only have one father and that is the guy that produced the sperm you were created from.

Saduharta said:
Only one I know even bothers with the distinction between birth parents and adoptive patents because they happen to know both.

"Appeal to anecdotal evidence" and "appeal to the people"... two fallacies in one sentence. Seriously? Not saying that your argument is wrong, but rather that your whole argument is based on fallacies.

Saduharta said:
So what is "incorrect" about tagging someone and their adoptive father as "father and child" now?

For starters -- there's no "father_and_child" tag... so taging anything as such would be incorrect yes. But taging an adoptive parent as "father" or "mother" would be equally as wrong as taging two adoptive siblings having sex as "incest". Incest is determined by biology not by how you feel about somebody -- likewise same goes for being a mother and father... it is determined by biology.