Posted under Tags
The character antonio salieri (fate/grand_order) has two distinct forms.
I'd like to see the creation of something like antonio salieri (first) (fate/grand_order) and antonio salieri (second) (fate/grand_order) to be able to filter out post like post #4072216 from post #4072155
Or another way to filter the very different looks from each other.
Would go with antonio_salieri_(ascension)_(fate/grand_order) and antonio_salieri_(second_ascension)_(fate/grand_order) instead but besides that it's not a bad idea to add these on relevant uploads on top of the regular antonio_salieri_(fate/grand_order) tag.
I agree that we should be able to search the different designs of the character more easily. However I would suggest the name be Antonio_salieri_(Man_in_Grey)_(fate/grand_order) for two reasons.
1) The source of the armor is him mixing with the Man in Grey as stated in the wiki: Salieri is clad in the shell/armor of an anti-hero.
This ability was acquired after mixing together with the 『Man in Grey』, an existence akin to the Reaper.
Source
2) There is actually a slightly different 3rd ascension form. That is why having a single tag and name for it would be much more intuitive than remembering what each ascension looks like IMO.
I would also like to mention that this is not the only character that changes with ascensions. Other examples include kama_(fate/grand_order), space_ishtar_(fate) and oda_nobunaga_(maou_avenger)_(fate). So we should probably do something similar for them as well.
Oh god, my head hurts just thinking about tagging each of their Ascension forms separately...
This is precisely why relevant tags for each form should be consistent between as many posts as possible. If we want to use Antonio Salieri as an example, a search for his first form could comprise something as simple as antonio_salieri_(fate/grand_order) red_armor full_armor mask red_gloves. For his second form, it'd be antionio_salieri_(fate/grand_order) grey_hair red_eyes cravat pinstripe_pattern suit. For his third form, it would largely be the same as the first form but with maybe the addition of black_wings sharp_teeth claws or something like that.
Seriously, guys. That's what the general tags are for. Suggesting that all of the characters' forms should be tagged separately is a sign of laziness, and would be a massive headache for non-fans of the Fate series to keep straight when the franchise is enough of a disaster with character overload as it is. Do you have any idea how hard it is for me to keep track of alternate costumes and forms in series like Kantai Collection or Azur Lane? I'm not into those series, but I do the best I can to look things up, or see if others can help me. Granted those titles are nowhere near as ridiculous with the alternate form pollution like Fate is, but you get the idea. If you guys really want to keep the various forms easier to search, then consider gardening posts so that they include more specific tags.
Anyway, long story short: I have to pitch a hard NO to the idea of tagging Ascension forms.
IMHO, I think we need to go back to the fundamentals when it comes to character qualifiers. What actually drives me nuts when tagging Fate characters is that the qualifiers have become way too inconsistent now, where we've got instances like:
*_(fate)
*_(fate/apocrypha)
*_(fate/extra)
*_(fate/grand_order)
*_(fate/requiem)
And so on. Yeah, a LOT of characters made their debut in FGO, but I've noticed that some of them don't have the *_(fate/grand_order) qualifier despite this, like gao_changgong_(fate), sei_shounagon_(fate), or murasaki_shikibu_(fate) to name a few examples.
While these qualifiers are not inherently bad for tagging a character who debuts in a particular title, Fate/Grand Order has thrown a proverbial monkey wrench into the works by including almost every character from previous and subsequent titles. I understand if this is too far a stretch to implement, but I strongly wish there was a big clean-up done so that characters have just the simple *_(fate) qualifier, rather than taggers having to keep track of, "Character A has the *_(fate/apocrypha) qualifier, Character B has the *_(fate) qualifier, and Character C has the *_(fate/grand_order) qualifier."
If a character has a separate unique identifiable look it should have a way to be looked for and sorted in or out. saying: just use red_armor full_armor mask red_gloves is just asinine. The majority of users can't look up more than 2 gen tags.
Yeah, the ship of not creating three different tags for every fgo character has sailed a long time ago. If the argument is to use gentags instead of tagging the form then that should be applied to all the other fate characters too, which frankly at this point in time is just not happening.
We have remodel (kantai collection), retrofit (azur lane), and the like, so at least having general first/second/third ascension tags that could be applied to any character with distinct ascension forms would not be all that inconsistent with what's been done with other copyrights.
Benit149 said:
This is precisely why relevant tags for each form should be consistent between as many posts as possible. If we want to use Antonio Salieri as an example, a search for his first form could comprise something as simple as antonio_salieri_(fate/grand_order) red_armor full_armor mask red_gloves. For his second form, it'd be antionio_salieri_(fate/grand_order) grey_hair red_eyes cravat pinstripe_pattern suit. For his third form, it would largely be the same as the first form but with maybe the addition of black_wings sharp_teeth claws or something like that.
Seriously, guys. That's what the general tags are for.
How do you expect regular users who only have 2 search tags to do this?
Even users who can look for more than 2 tags can likely not be bothered to fill in 6 different tags just to find one character.
Alternative character tags for specific forms are the easiest way to go about this. Especially when it comes to something as convoluted as FGO.
EroBB said:
How do you expect regular users who only have 2 search tags to do this?
Even users who can look for more than 2 tags can likely not be bothered to fill in 6 different tags just to find one character.
Alternative character tags for specific forms are the easiest way to go about this. Especially when it comes to something as convoluted as FGO.
Fine. I'll concede that using gentags when there's such a strict search limit for new users is asinine. But let me ask this then.
If we're going to implement a tagging system that revolves around Servant Ascensions the same way that Kantai Collection Remodels, Azur Lane Retrofits, Pokemon Evolutions and such are done on Danbooru, are we going to limit it to characters who have visibly radical changes to their forms like Antonio Salieri, Zhuge Liang/Waver Velvet or Swimsuit Servants? Or is this going to involve everyone down to the last minute detail, such as Mata Hari's miniscule changes in her costume, or Billy the Kid gaining a jacket in Stage 2 and a hat + scarf in Stage 3? I would like to understand just how broad your scope is with such a lofty change.
As @nonamethanks said, I think this just isn't going to happen unless there's widespread support for the effort involved in creating tags, writing wikis, sorting images, making implications, yada yada yada, for the sake of making things consistent with other series like Kantai Collection or Azur Lane. There's no way just one or two people would have the energy to sort this shit out.
Now if it was a generalized first_ascension, second_ascension, third_ascension trio of tags that can assemble anyone and everyone under those umbrellas, then we could talk more.
Personally I think only characters with drastic design changes need this. That is why I mentioned the examples above like kama_(fate/grand_order) and space_ishtar_(fate).
Most ascension changes are simple and don't change too much, so we don't need to overcomplicate it.
Benit149 said:
Now if it was a generalized first_ascension, second_ascension, third_ascension trio of tags that can assemble anyone and everyone under those umbrellas, then we could talk more.
I think you misunderstood, this is precisely what .Dank's and mine suggestion was. Second comment at the top.
Doing this for every FGO character is not necessary, as you said yourself most barely change anything besides a few minor details, Salieri is an exception since his different ascensions brings very obvious visual changes.
EroBB said:
I think you misunderstood, this is precisely what .Dank's and mine suggestion was. Second comment at the top.
Doing this for every FGO character is not necessary, as you said yourself most barely change anything besides a few minor details, Salieri is an exception since his different ascensions brings very obvious visual changes.
The way it was worded suggested that every character should be tagged as *_(first_ascension), *_(second_ascension) and *_(third_ascension).
That is what I suggested yes. But it was merely an example of what I wanted to happen. I asked for other ways for this differentiation to be cataloged. The remodel/ascension approach was another suggestion.
This is what I said on the OP:
"Or another way to filter the very different looks from each other."
EroBB said:
Ah, that's my mistake then. I was just talking about this specific case.
Okay then.
Anyway, I really don't think we need specific Ascension tags for special cases like Salieri. If we did just first_ascension_(fate/grand_order), second_ascension_(fate/grand_order), and third_ascension_(fate/grand_order), then new users could simply do a *_(fate) + *_ascension_(fate/grand_order) search. Of course this system runs into some problems that I thought of, but we should get some feelers out for how others think of this.
The benefit is that it would be consistent with tags like remodel_(kantai_collection) or retrofit_(azur_lane). The downside is... well, let's be serious - this is the fucking Fate franchise we're talking about here.
I think given the discussion, it should be OK (but since no one has followed up on this in a week, I'd wait a few more days to see where it's going) to start applying general tags to Salieri or any other Servant:
first ascension (fate grand order)
second ascension (fate grand order)
third ascension (fate grand order)
Separate character tags for each character, since there are plenty of Servants in FGO with wildly different ascensions (pretty much any non-welfare Summer servant for instance), would eventually add up to a ton of new tags that some may find excessive, and there would be confusion over whether the differences in a Servant's ascensions are considered enough to have a separate tag. I think things can sort of naturally be tagged (in the case of big differences) or not tagged (in the case of minute differences) with the freedom to use a gen tag.
Updated
+1
Yes, easier to implement and consistent with what other series do with form changes.
EDIT: Okay, I've had my sleep. As I said, there are some issues I wanted to bring up. For simplicity's sake, I'll refer to the individual Ascensions as First, Second and Third to avoid redundancy. Second, this may be a lengthier explanation than I would like, but bear with me here since I want to explain this as best as possible to those not in the Fate series. With that preamble out of the way, let's get started, in no particular order.
SLIGHT CHANGES vs. DRASTIC CHANGES: Throughout some characters' Ascension Trees, their outfits and/or forms will gain radical changes. The most notorious example is Antonio Salieri, and perhaps the reason why this conversation started in the first place. post #3867674 showcases all of his forms nicely, with the bottom being his First, the center his Second, and the monstrous form on the top his Third. However, many characters don't have conveniently radical changes to their outfits to discern them between Ascensions. A good example of this is Lancer. His Fate/Stay Night outfit is his First (post #2134826) while a very slight alteration is his Third (post #2134830). His Second is unique to FGO (post #2790953) and easily recognizable enough to tag as such.
A more frustrating example is Mata Hari where we have her First (post #2138498), her Second (post #2587103), and her Third (post #2138497). Can you spot the differences right away? If you said yes, then you're lying. The changes are so minimal that I hardly see the worth in tagging any but her Third since at least the veil is easy enough to see.
You could also throw Archer into this camp entirely, where his First is his FSN outfit (post #2135732), his Second has his hair down and is missing the red clothing (post #2135734), and his Third goes back to the First outfit but has some slight tweaks (post #2135731). It's difficult for me to see any Ascension tags being used for a case like this whatsoever since none of those forms appear to be unique to FGO. The same can be said for Gilgamesh, where his First is basically the golden armor of his uber-popular Second form sans the red cloth around the waist (post #2136694), while his Third is his shirtless form seen in Fate/Hollow Ataraxia (post #4062384). Plenty more examples where those come from, but I'll save that for later.
Anyway, if there's any ambiguity I'd like to see addressed, it's this. Is it worth the trouble hunting down every Ascension form for a character no matter how slight it is?
PRE-FGO FORMS: Many character Ascensions have been carried over from titles that came before FGO. The titles are in release order in the List of Fate Series Characters, so no need to reiterate them here. For instance, Saber's iconic armored dress (post #4752) is treated as her Second in FGO, while that same dress without the armor (post #9276) is her First. Her only unique FGO design is her Third (post #2132774) where a crown and cape are added. See the above example with Lancer as well.
So what does this all mean? Simply put, I see no point in going back and adding Ascension tags for older posts. If a character form already existed in a title before FGO, then I say leave them alone. Just stick to forms that are unique to FGO since the Ascension mechanic started in this game, and we wouldn't want to confuse the issue by retroactively inserting this mechanic to past images.
Generally speaking, an existing character's Third tends to be unique to FGO as an embellished version of their previous outfits. Off the top of my head, I can think of instances like Nero Claudius (post #3022888), Jeanne D'Arc (post #2197364), Child Gilgamesh (post #2344001), or Meltryllis (post #3547873) who have unique Third forms. Those can be tagged just fine, but I believe their other forms should be left alone.
Do you guys agree that we should leave pre-FGO forms out of this, or should they be included? Either way, I believe the Ascension tag wikis need to be thorough about this, OR make an umbrella Ascension tag, imply the three to it, then go into as much detail as we want in the umbrella's wiki, OR write a wholly separate guide similar to the List of Fate Series Characters and link it in the wikis.
CROSS POLLINATION: Inevitably, there are going to be times when Ascension tags are used for multiple characters in an image. Let's use post #3094261 as an example, where Cu Alter is in his Third while Medb is in her First. This means that if one wanted to look for images of Cu in his First, or likewise Medb in her Third, you're going to come back with this image as a result. Using just the three Ascension tags as umbrella tags means this is going to happen, no matter what. However, while it's not perfect, it's a much cleaner and simpler solution than creating Ascension tags for every conceivable character and form. You could say that the three Ascension tags act as filters to help with the search, but users will have to do their own legwork from there.
I don't know if this will be a problem that'll come up down the line, but I figured it'd be best to at least point it out now for future reference's sake.
!!!!AN EXCEPTION!!!!
Sound the klaxons! It's time for that dreaded exception to the rules! There is at least one character in the entire game where the Ascension tags are going to be completely useless, and that is with Valkyrie. As outlined in that wiki, Valkyrie actually changes entire characters instead of just a single person's costume. Ortlinde is the First, Hildr is the Second, and Thrud is the Third, and all of them are already implicated to Valkyrie. In short, they're already taken care of, so leave them alone, period.
Now that I think about it, another really weird instance of this is with the Avenger-class version of Oda Nobunaga. Although it's still the same individual throughout the Ascension Tree, her gender changes for her Second (post #3562482) and is already tagged as Oda Kippoushi. Her Third is a radical change from the other two (post #3555456) and is likewise already tagged as Oda Nobunaga (Maou Avenger). Using the Ascension tags would feel kind of redundant in this case.
All right, that's all I can think of for now. Any thoughts or ideas on how to address these potential problems?
Updated
Benit149 said:
Do you guys agree that we should leave pre-FGO forms out of this, or should they be included? Either way, I believe the Ascension tag wikis need to be thorough about this, OR make an umbrella Ascension tag, imply the three to it, then go into as much detail as we want in the umbrella's wiki, OR write a wholly separate guide similar to the List of Fate Series Characters and link it in the wikis.
I think in the cases where two ascensions are very similar and the third is unique, I'd agree that just the third should be tagged. I'm a bit more ambivalent on the the pre-FGO form thing. Some (myself definitely) are not going to be aware if a form may or may not have appeared in a previous Fate incarnation. If it's something that looks really different and as of now doesn't actually have a separate tag, I feel like it could still be worthwhile.
And yeah, cross-pollination is unavoidable. Though I'm not sure it will be to the extent that it dilutes searches too much.
