alias slender_waist -> narrow_waist

The bulk update request #6093 has been approved by @evazion.

create alias slender_waist -> narrow_waist

Previously discussed in topic #17916, topic #15663, topic #13909, topic #6737.

• the 2/5 ratio in the narrow waist wiki will never be followed. We're not machines that can accurately measure lengths, and nobody's whipping out their tape measure to check if a post fits under a danbooru tag
• pick a random page in slender waist and you'll see that the results are identical to narrow waist. We don't need two tags for this.

The two tags are the same. We can remove the alias afterwards, but the posts in the two tags are virtually identical right now.

In previous topics the following posts were used as examples of not-narrow waist: post #2320531, post #2340283, post #2405855.

Since nobody cares to read wikis, I can find a massive amount of similar examples on the first few pages of narrow waist right now. Some examples: post #4607267, post #4582939, post #4581008, post #4582747, post #4595008, post #4580667, post #4580664, post #4581843.
Slender waist has "too many" narrow waist posts, and narrow waist has "too many" slender waist posts for the two tags to be different.

If those posts are mistagged then someone needs to live in narrow waist and garden it till the end of time, because clearly nobody else cares.

Ironically, even posts like post #4579281 or post #4586506 don't fit under the narrow definition of narrow waist - and I measured those with a screen ruler.

I'm sticking to what I said in topic #17916.

-1. The slender waist tag has no wiki, while the narrow_waist has a specific wiki. Given that slender waist has some 3k posts and nearly no overlap with the almost 1k posts for narrow waist, I think there is a high chance of adding noise to the narrow waist tag by migrating all those slender waist posts. I would suspect that a large portion of the slender waist images do not meet the requirements for the narrow waist tag.

I'd support nuking the slender waist tag first instead of trying to migrate anything from the tag. You can hammer out a definition afterwards, but I'm opposed to trying to salvage anything from the slender waist tag that has no definition and absolutely nothing to define what falls under it.

NWF_Renim said:

I'd support nuking the slender waist tag first instead of trying to migrate anything from the tag. You can hammer out a definition afterwards, but I'm opposed to trying to salvage anything from the slender waist tag that has no definition and absolutely nothing to define what falls under it.

But the tag is already identical with narrow waist in its usage. Doing it manually means we have to move 3.6k posts by hand, and also saved searches won't be carried over.

NWF_Renim said:

I'm sticking to what I said in topic #17916.

I'd support nuking the slender waist tag first instead of trying to migrate anything from the tag. You can hammer out a definition afterwards, but I'm opposed to trying to salvage anything from the slender waist tag that has no definition and absolutely nothing to define what falls under it.

I was going to vote yes but after reading this I'm going with meh.

nonamethanks said:

But the tag is already identical with narrow waist in its usage. Doing it manually means we have to move 3.6k posts by hand, and also saved searches won't be carried over.

Without a definition and from what I'm seeing of the images under it, the tag is essentially nothing more than a "female character with a waist" tag.

NWF_Renim said:

Without a definition and from what I'm seeing of the images under it, the tag is essentially nothing more than a "female character with a waist" tag.

And how is that different from narrow waist? Look at the first page of results vs the results for narrow waist.
They're the exact same tag.

nonamethanks said:

And how is that different from narrow waist? Look at the first page of results.
They're the exact same tag.

The tag still has a definition and while not everyone may have followed what defined the tag, it'd still be easier to work with a set of ~1.5k images that had a definition to clean up and then add into than it would be to work with it after merger and the set jumps up to ~5k images with the vast majority of the images coming from a tag that had no definition at all.

Another issue this isn't resolving and seems to be simply ignoring is defining what is "slender" or "narrow" for the tag. Without a definition the tag might as well be saying it's any female character who isn't tagged fat, which would be a tag simply to pad up tag counts.

Well, the tag is called "narrow", which means users will just use the tag for waists narrower than the chest or hips, and trying to clean it up won't do anything for future uploads. We can try all we want to come up with a beautiful wiki description, but it will be ignored simply because "narrow waist" just means a narrow waist. Any attempt at codifying how narrow it should be will be ignored, as shown by the current results of the tag. That was also why I was opposed to these tags in the first point in forum #178877.

We can create a very narrow waist tag for extremely narrow waists, which is what the original wiki was trying to describe, and that would help a lot with the usage, but these two tags right now are being used for the exact same thing.

If this alias is not accepted, I can't see anyone looking at the two tags and trying to decide what is "narrow" and what is not. They're already both a lost cause, a wiki that is ignored by every user doesn't make one tag better than the other.

Someone has to sort through the combined posts of both tags anyway because both are full of "wrong" (according to the wiki anyway) results. It doesn't matter if the tags are combined, the noise won't increase because you already have the same chance to find a very narrow waist in narrow waist as you do in slender waist. It does however matter if they are not, because it just means there will be two tags for the same exact thing, and people will use either according to their preference.

Don't breast size tags also have similar problems?

Though people seem to read the wikis for those, are maybe other users are more aggressive about gardening out examples that don't qualify.

---

Anyhow, if ambiguity exists, I'd support moving out narrow_waist examples (that qualify for the 2/5 ratio) into the proposed very narrow waist, then 'merge' slender_waist with narrow_waist. Not sure how the aliasing/renaming/nuking should go though; it would depend on how people have subscribed to the tags.

flat chest and small breasts have a lot of overlap, and so do medium breasts and large breasts, yes, however these are definitions that exist in real life and that have been around for so long that the wrong results are either at the boundaries or quickly gardened out.

There's no difference between narrow waist and slender waist both in danbooru usage and in the real world, which is why there's such a mess.

Anyhow, if ambiguity exists, I'd support moving out narrow_waist examples (that qualify for the 2/5 ratio) into the proposed very narrow waist, then 'merge' slender_waist with narrow_waist.

I think the ratio numbers should just be thrown out and very narrow waist be made for waists that are half or less the size of hips.

In any case, if this alias is rejected I guess I'll just manually merge the two tags and move the correct results to very narrow waist if nobody disagrees, and to hell with the subscribed users.

I'd support creating the very narrow waist tag, which could probably be populated during the clean-up process of the narrow waist tag since it'd require a close review of what actually should be tagged as such.

A concern I have with the "waists narrower than the chest or hips" definition though is that it feels like tagging the default depiction for female anime characters though, which would make it like tagging any character with hands cause they have hands. Oh well, I guess can determine after the fact whether the tag actually has value.

Yeah, sorry, but I'm not slogging through yet another wall-of-text forum thread about the difference between "slender" and "narrow". This is another case where I'm going to say, clean the tags up, write a better wiki, do whatever you have to do, because I'm aliasing them.

Most wikis with hard numbers like this 2/5s rule are just bullshit. Most people operate on an intuitive understanding of what they think a tag is for. They don't sit there and measure the character's hip-to-waist ratio. Especially not when it's a made-up number pulled from thin air. It's like trying to put hard numbers on what constitutes curvy or muscular and expecting people to follow it.

I would say both these tags are bad tags. If you go back to the original thread (topic #4348), the creator of the tag really just wanted a tag for hourglass figure. Which is more or less what curvy or wide hips are for. Now here we are, ten years later, spending all this time trying to make sense of a pet tag created by Some Guy ten years ago because he wanted a tag for curvy but with no fat chicks.

The bulk update request #6093 (forum #190128) has been approved by @evazion.

Yeah, after having a good look at wide hips it doesn't look like there's much of a difference between the two tags. Not sure if they should just be merged. The key definition from that tag's wiki is "with hips as wide as their chest and much wider than their waist.", which is pretty much identical in substance to narrow/slender waist.

nonamethanks said:

Yeah, after having a good look at wide hips it doesn't look like there's much of a difference between the two tags. Not sure if they should just be merged. The key definition from that tag's wiki is "with hips as wide as their chest and much wider than their waist.", which is pretty much identical in substance to narrow/slender waist.

Wide hips examples seem to be... 'chunkier' when compared to narrow waist.

Though overall not too much difference, and both wikis sound like they overlap. Maybe just alias everything into something like hourglass figure?

(Though that does have the problem that most females drawn in anime-style tend to have hourglass figures anyway, as NWF Renim mentions earlier.)