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Yes, it seems the main difference between the English and Japanese scripts is the degree to which Bridget coming out as a girl is a spoiler. The Japanese version has multiple instances of Bridget being referred to as a boy initially, which don't appear to be present in the English version.
blindVigil said:
It's also something you can blacklist if you just despise the idea of transgender characters.
That doesn't work if you consider a character to be incorrectly tagged as such. I still want to see Bridget posts, after all. You'd have to limit it to only cases that are explicitly stated as such, and on the topic of Bridget, I don't see that as being the case with him in the first place. At most, it's implied in one ending, if you choose to interpret it that way, and left open-ended in another, which you can interpret however the hell you want. That's not explicit. Setting aside my objections from before, which I won't reiterate because I've said everything I had to say, how many cases does that actually apply to that aren't assorted OCs? And that's not even getting started on even more contentious cases like Yamato.
punished_K said:
For the last time: Every ending in Strive is canon until proven otherwise.
Or how about: No ending in Strive is canon until proven otherwise. That's not an argument, that's a declaration of your position on the matter.
While ruminating on it I can see why option 2 is much preferred, I still feel uneasy. I get making sure the art is properly tagged so that people can easily search it, but I can't help this sinking feeling that denying Bridget's chosen gender could turn this site into a safe haven of sorts for anti-trans people to spread their hate and bile, which is the last thing I want from a site I love so much. Perhaps I'm being paranoid and admins will be able to keep that filth out. I just can't help but worry.
I do wonder what will happen if in a future Guilty Gear Bridget finds a way to fully transition biologically into a female. Considering the setting it's not farfetched.
For the most part, Bridget is still being portrayed the way they were beforehand, so there's no reason why posts after this event should be tagged any differently.
alfredo_jones said:
While ruminating on it I can see why option 2 is much preferred, I still feel uneasy. I get making sure the art is properly tagged so that people can easily search it, but I can't help this sinking feeling that denying Bridget's chosen gender could turn this site into a safe haven of sorts for anti-trans people to spread their hate and bile, which is the last thing I want from a site I love so much. Perhaps I'm being paranoid and admins will be able to keep that filth out. I just can't help but worry.
That's why I think posts like post #5585188 and post #5584067, which imply that Bridget is transgender, should be tagged 1girl. But Bridget is only revealed to be a girl in one ending, so it's likely many artists aren't aware of it. For example, post #5587816 (NSFW) still portrays Bridget as male, so it should be tagged 1boy.
gotb4096 said:
For the most part, Bridget is still being portrayed the way they were beforehand, so there's no reason why posts after this event should be tagged any differently.
That's why I think posts like post #5585188 and post #5584067, which imply that Bridget is transgender, should be tagged 1girl. But Bridget is only revealed to be a girl in one ending, so it's likely many artists aren't aware of it. For example, post #5587816 (NSFW) still portrays Bridget as male, so it should be tagged 1boy.
It's only one of three endings, not the hardest one to get, and, well, everyone is talking about it, so I'd be more inclined to believe that most artists just don't care.
Also, as I've said before, being transgender doesn't make Bridget biologically female by default. It's perfectly normal that artists making NSFW art, whether they believe or agree with Bridget being trans or not, would not just suddenly start drawing her with a female body. There's no reason to assume anybody is without visual evidence, and presence of the trans flag isn't what I consider evidence.
Hi, sorry for being a new account, but after reading a bunch of helpful arguments elsewhere, i don't know where to post (in a meaningful way) this "cope headcanon" (according to some, since it indicates that "trans Bridget" is a big misunderstanding) which reads a few elements of the materials presented in Strive and tries to not clash with established lore (instead of taking 2 lines as the absolute reality). We all know good stories are told through hidden meanings within what is presented, and that should not be ignored. I'm sure, and hope, that most of these points have already been discussed here (because why would we discussing tags before having an answer or at least more clarity?), but i'd still like to post these "points for 1boy" in a concise way.
TL;DR: 1boy, otoko_no_ko, not trans, not a bad ending, not a joke, both endings lead to similar conclusion, typical otokonoko's "i'm a girl" but in a serious way, not a localization issue (other than the GG WORLD profile using gendered pronouns where it should've not)
0. The change from the male to the androgyny symbol is in both JP and EN versions, so Bridget's change is global, all tell the same story. Which i'm my view, it's the development of an otokonoko to fully embrace the girl side (remember that bridget's always corrected people), and that symbol reflects that, plus some societal expectations stuff (that we don't care).
1. Normal ending: Bridget says "Ojouchan... is fine! Because i'm a girl!"
Bridget is now accepting being seen as a girl and embracing that side, unlike before. Notice that Bridget says "is fine". Bridget does not reject being an Obocchan ("cowboy"). Since Bridget does not deny being a boy, we cannot affirm that Bridget's coming out as a transwoman (only wants to be seen as a girl) with just that line. Reminder that "I'm a girl" is a typical otokonoko joke, while obviously not being played as a joke here, it's a way to end the scene in conclusive way right after the sentence that carries weight in it ("ojouchan... is fine") and in a good tone.
2. Extreme ending: Bridget and Ky talk about not changing regardless of what others think, and simply be themselves. To not lie to their families or themselves (being Human+Gear/Boy+Girl). In GGST, we can see that Bridget is neither living as the man which Bridget's family would expect (superstition has been dispelled), nor as the girl townsfolk saw Bridget as. Bridget has been living as the Bridget we've always knew. According to Ky, Bridget is "conflicted because you still cherish the present", that agrees with Bridget's "ofc i'm running! i'm happy the way i am" in other ending. But why is Bridget so conflicted in both routes?
3. Theme song:
- "The Town inside me": an allusion to the many facets that Bridget has.
- "And everyone’s voice. Only I’m not there": Bridget cares how others (family/town) see Bridget, but is the one they see really Bridget? (i might be overreading this)
- "Because I’m afraid something will change. Me without me, I’m the one to blame.": The important chunk. The change that Bridget's afraid of is stated as "Me without me" or "Be without me", but the same interpretation follows (it's likely "Me", since it'd also be a play with "uchi"). Me(final) without me(M/F): Should Bridget live as man, Bridget loses the girl side; Should Bridget live as woman, Bridget loses the male part. Missing any part would make Bridget not Bridget anymore. And Bridget would be to blame for that change, since Bridget dispelled the superstition. Which one do townsfolk/family expect Bridget to be? Fulfilling expectations is always scary... (the main point of Bridget's story?)
-Near the end, the song reflects Bridget's conversation with KY: "No matter what changes, will no longer change me. No matter what- change- no no no won’t change me". Which is self explanatory: Bridget is Bridget.
But doesn't also identifying as a girl changes Bridget? No, Because Bridget has now acknowledged that that is a part of what makes Bridget Bridget.
Sources: the game, or...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W5ezv_xxOk (Bridget Arcade All Dialogue Guilty Gear Strive)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7voFmNtqj8A (アーケードモード ブリジット 掛け合い集)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69VV0pH57XE (The Town Inside Me [With Lyrics])
Updated
blindVigil said:
It's only one of three endings, not the hardest one to get, and, well, everyone is talking about it, so I'd be more inclined to believe that most artists just don't care.
Also, as I've said before, being transgender doesn't make Bridget biologically female by default. It's perfectly normal that artists making NSFW art, whether they believe or agree with Bridget being trans or not, would not just suddenly start drawing her with a female body. There's no reason to assume anybody is without visual evidence, and presence of the trans flag isn't what I consider evidence.
Sorry to ask a specific user a question and not have it be more broad, if you don't want to answer I understand. You owe me nothing.
I've seen you refer to people refer to what to tag as what the artist or character is biologically. Because Bridget is probably not going to be drawn as often with secondary characteristics and female genitalia in full display (not often but still probably gonna happen, people love putting tits on things), I can guess that you would probably say that even if they are covered head to toe with no bulge or bumps that because Bridget has an assumed "biologically" boy body due to their history we would tag them as 1boy even if they were holding up a sign saying "Hello I am A Girl." Is that correct in your opinion? And the opinion of anyone else who is reading this?
What if a character was introduced as a woman character, with breasts, or a guy with a hairy chest and their was a later casual reveal that the character was trans. We never see their genitalia in the show. Some people start drawing the trans woman character with a dick, or the trans man with a vagina. We can't prove in canon that it's different then their genitalia but the fandom and the site as a whole has accepted them as the gender they told us at the start and nothing about their presentation. Would we mark the trans woman pics with no visible genitals as 1boy going forward and vice versa? I am genuinely curious and I know that's a long walk for a hypothetical but I think it will help the two sides if we start to know what the users in this thread consider a trans person and how that changes the perception of a character.
PS: I say biologically in quotes because human bodies are weird and I have know guys who have had half grown ovaries that they had taken out. Or you know, certain cancers that result in people losing sexual characteristics.
peechi said:
Hi, sorry for being a new account, but after reading a bunch of helpful arguments elsewhere, i don't know where to post (in a meaningful way) this "cope headcanon" (according to some, since it indicates that "trans Bridget" is a big misunderstanding) which reads a few elements of the materials presented in Strive and tries to not clash with established lore (instead of taking 2 lines as the absolute reality). We all know good stories are told through hidden meanings within what is presented, and that should not be ignored. I'm sure, and hope, that most of these points have already been discussed here (because why would we discussing tags before having an answer or at least more clarity?), but i'd still like to post these "points for 1boy" in a concise way.
TL;DR: 1boy, otoko_no_ko, not trans, not a bad ending, not a joke, both endings lead to similar conclusion, typical otokonoko's "i'm a girl" but in a serious way, not a localization issue (other than the GG WORLD profile using gendered pronouns where it should've not)
0. The change from the male to the androgyny symbol is in both JP and EN versions, so Bridget's change is global, all tell the same story. Which i'm my view, it's the development of an otokonoko to fully embrace the girl side (remember that bridget's always corrected people), and that symbol reflects that, plus some societal expectations stuff (that we don't care).
1. Normal ending: Bridget says "Ojouchan... is fine! Because i'm a girl!"
Bridget is now accepting being seen as a girl and embracing that side, unlike before. Notice that Bridget says "is fine". Bridget does not reject being an Obocchan ("cowboy"). Since Bridget does not deny being a boy, we cannot affirm that Bridget's coming out as a transwoman (only wants to be seen as a girl) with just that line. Reminder that "I'm a girl" is a typical otokonoko joke, while obviously not being played as a joke here, it's a way to end the scene in conclusive way right after the sentence that carries weight in it ("ojouchan... is fine") and in a good tone.
2. Extreme ending: Bridget and Ky talk about not changing regardless of what others think, and simply be themselves. To not lie to their families or themselves (being Human+Gear/Boy+Girl). In GGST, we can see that Bridget is neither living as the man which Bridget's family would expect (superstition has been dispelled), nor as the girl townsfolk saw Bridget as. Bridget has been living as the Bridget we've always knew. According to Ky, Bridget is "conflicted because you still cherish the present", that agrees with Bridget's "ofc i'm running! i'm happy the way i am" in other ending. But why is Bridget so conflicted in both routes?
3. Theme song:
- "The Town inside me": an allusion to the many facets that Bridget has.
- "And everyone’s voice. Only I’m not there": Bridget cares how others (family/town) see Bridget, but is the one they see really Bridget? (i might be overreading this)
- "Because I’m afraid something will change. Me without me, I’m the one to blame.": The important chunk. The change that Bridget's afraid of is stated as "Me without me" or "Be without me", but the same interpretation follows (it's likely "Me", since it'd also be a play with "uchi"). Me(final) without me(M/F): Should Bridget live as man, Bridget loses the girl side; Should Bridget live as woman, Bridget loses the male part. Missing any part would make Bridget not Bridget anymore. And Bridget would be to blame for that change, since Bridget dispelled the superstition. Which one do townsfolk/family expect Bridget to be? Fulfilling expectations is always scary... (the main point of Bridget's story?)
-Near the end, the song reflects Bridget's conversation with KY: "No matter what changes, will no longer change me. No matter what- change- no no no won’t change me". Which is self explanatory: Bridget is Bridget.
But doesn't also identifying as a girl changes Bridget? No, Because Bridget has now acknowledged that that is a part of what makes Bridget Bridget.Sources: the game, or...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W5ezv_xxOk (Bridget Arcade All Dialogue Guilty Gear Strive)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7voFmNtqj8A (アーケードモード ブリジット 掛け合い集)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69VV0pH57XE (The Town Inside Me [With Lyrics])
+1
Canti said:
Sorry to ask a specific user a question and not have it be more broad, if you don't want to answer I understand. You owe me nothing.
I've seen you refer to people refer to what to tag as what the artist or character is biologically. Because Bridget is probably not going to be drawn as often with secondary characteristics and female genitalia in full display (not often but still probably gonna happen, people love putting tits on things), I can guess that you would probably say that even if they are covered head to toe with no bulge or bumps that because Bridget has an assumed "biologically" boy body due to their history we would tag them as 1boy even if they were holding up a sign saying "Hello I am A Girl." Is that correct in your opinion? And the opinion of anyone else who is reading this?
In that situation, I assume we would tag her as a girl. A sign saying, "I am a girl." is more evidence to me than a flag that's used primarily for support of trans people, and doesn't explicitly mean someone's sex has changed, or will change.
What if a character was introduced as a woman character, with breasts, or a guy with a hairy chest and their was a later casual reveal that the character was trans. We never see their genitalia in the show. Some people start drawing the trans woman character with a dick, or the trans man with a vagina. We can't prove in canon that it's different then their genitalia but the fandom and the site as a whole has accepted them as the gender they told us at the start and nothing about their presentation. Would we mark the trans woman pics with no visible genitals as 1boy going forward and vice versa? I am genuinely curious and I know that's a long walk for a hypothetical but I think it will help the two sides if we start to know what the users in this thread consider a trans person and how that changes the perception of a character.
Assuming I understood this properly, we would tag them based on appearance. The woman would be tagged as such, and the man the same. Poison is precisely your first example.
Poison is unambiguously a woman (by appearance). She has breasts, a curvy figure, feminine facial features; it wouldn't make sense for us to tag her otherwise. If she kisses a girl, it's yuri, if she sucks a dick, it's hetero, because even if you give her a dick, she's just a futanari as far as most people care, and most people consider futas to be female. The fact she may have originally been male doesn't factor, because we're not going to tag what is very clearly two girls interacting romantically/sexually as hetero.
The reason Bridget differs, is because of tags like otoko no ko and the ambiguity of her appearance. Bridget has always been a "trap" character, and this has strongly influenced how she's tagged. Leaving Strive completely out of the discussion, Bridget was always a boy that looked like a girl and could even be considered infamous for challenging the sexuality of some men. Otoko no kos are a popular type of character, if we tagged her as a girl, then it would make no sense to tag her as one, and by extension, there would be no otoko no ko tag at all, because they would all be tagged as girls outside of explicit art. Then there's the issue of yuri vs hetero vs yaoi. Should a fully dressed Bridget, kissing another a guy, be tagged hetero, despite the fact they're both boys? That obviously wouldn't make sense, people looking for yaoi/hetero/yuri would get pretty upset by such results.
It's not about what danbooru as a site thinks of trans people, even this discussion after the thread was unlocked is predicated on the idea that Bridget is trans. We're just trying to work out how to tag her going forward. Just changing her from 1boy to 1girl has so many repercussions for our entire tagging system. Do people who know nothing about her being trans, or just don't care, not want her to turn up in otoko no ko searches? Should she show up in yuri searches? What about genderswap, are pictures of her with a dick genderswap (ftm) or are pictures of her with breasts and a vagina genderswap (mtf)?
Even if we limited it specifically to her Strive appearance, it still poses complicated questions, especially considering so far that only one person(that I currently know of) has unambiguously drawn her as a woman since the reveal, and we can't just assume that's a trend that's going to pick up steam going forward. All other sexual depictions of her Strive appearance have been male, and I personally don't like the idea of fragmenting a character between multiple searches based on whether or not they're wearing clothes.
Sankaku handled it pretty well. A single line, from one ending, in a questionably-canon mode, where the Otokonoko context is easily shifted and lost in translation... should not under any circumstances, outweigh literally every other piece of media this character has appeared in for 20 years.
The domestic community of the character's origin does not seem to acknowledge or even care about a transition. They are also the community that voted Bridget as their #1 biggest request for a return, it's hard to imagine they would shift the primary trait of such affection. The Japanese website has the bio for the character stating, unequivocally, Bridget "is a boy". The androgyne symbol on the character's hat is not a female symbol, not a trans symbol, but one for androgyny. And not only that, but it points up, signaling "masculine" androgyny.
The character never rejects being male in two opportunities to. The character also never insists on being called female, rather stating that Missy "is fine", not a demand. Does the use of a localization error "her" pronouns in GG World (the Japanese version makes no gender claim at all in such an arbitrary way), and a single voice line that doesn't contradict the character's androgyny, really carry such weight?
I'm fine with the character shifting motivations and becoming trans, but it hasn't under any scrutiny been explained that way, and people jumping the gun really muddied this character in the west. If further storylines or ArcSys statements come out confirming the character as trans, then by all means retag everything 1girl or transfem. That hasn't happened yet.
Updated
peechi said:
text
That appears to be mostly what people who played the western localizations think. Whereas the english game explicitly refers to Bridget with female pronouns and such, in Japan, that doesn't really happen. So most sites are still referring to him as a boy. If more source material was released and followed-up this supposed transition story, it would be good evidence. But until then, I'd only treat this as headcanon.
This post on Steam forums sums up why there's such confusion:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1384160/discussions/0/3455969236645692537/?ctp=12#c4778901811097041889
Furthermore, the japanese sites are still saying Bridget is just Otokonoko (male crossdresser)
https://twitter.com/rayforcegame/status/1558794788354158594
Previously, I predicted that Bridget treatment in Japan don't change. Apparently I was right.
This is the link to the latest(2022/8/14) news about Bridget.
As you can see, Bridget is treated as male in this article.
Sites like Pixiv still have artists tagging Bridget as a boy. If you want to keep things closest to the (probable) canon, I'd suggest doing the same.
avidd said:
The domestic community of the character's origin does not seem to acknowledge or even care about a transition. They are also the community that voted Bridget as their #1 biggest request for a return, it's hard to imagine they would shift the primary trait of such affection. The Japanese website has the bio for the character stating, unequivocally, Bridget "is a male". The androgyne symbol on the character's hat is not a female symbol, not a trans symbol, but one for androgyny. And not only that, but it points up, signaling "masculine" androgyny.
The point about the nun symbol is a good one. That symbol, the way it's rotated, represents "sometimes distinguished:
androgyne (male appearance)". A transgender, female, or even neutral androgynous symbol would be more fitting to the character if the point was to make him trans. Using an androgynous male symbol just implies he's... an androgynous male.
This is why you simply shouldn't cater to certain groups, or allow any discussion whatsoever on polarising topics.
Tagging should be kept robotic, unaffected by opinions or ideals or anything else, and have zero tolerance over anyone trying to edit war over them.
You can make whatever arguments you want or put however many words in a strawman's mouth as you please but it won't change the fact that in regards to tagging this is a complete and utter mess filled with contradictions that, if implemented, would defeat the point of having tags or even boorus to aggregate easily searchable and categorised content. It just doesn't work, it's not realistic, frankly put it's a nuisance.
Kaenbyou_Rin said:
This is why you simply shouldn't cater to certain groups, or allow any discussion whatsoever on polarising topics.
Tagging should be kept robotic, unaffected by opinions or ideals or anything else, and have zero tolerance over anyone trying to edit war over them.
You can make whatever arguments you want or put however many words in a strawman's mouth as you please but it won't change the fact that in regards to tagging this is a complete and utter mess filled with contradictions that, if implemented, would defeat the point of having tags or even boorus to aggregate easily searchable and categorised content. It just doesn't work, it's not realistic, frankly put it's a nuisance.
Alright, I said that I wouldn't reply here again but this comment made me facepalm so hard I've gotten a headache.
A "certain group" will be catered to one way or the other. It's a genuine question brought up that was never specified, so it's good that we have a clear description of how things should be tagged from here on out. Look at the bright side, this decision has finally been clarified after a long time of not really having a specific answer. Even if it's subject to change in the future, it'll be beneficial for the time being.
It's already been decided that no change would be made in this case, so you don't need to worry about "nuisances" or anything. As for the polarizing subjects, welcome to the internet. You can find arguments just like this one all over any hentai or porn site out there.
Don't beat the dead horse here.
Kaenbyou_Rin said:
This is why you simply shouldn't cater to certain groups, or allow any discussion whatsoever on polarising topics.
Tagging should be kept robotic, unaffected by opinions or ideals or anything else, and have zero tolerance over anyone trying to edit war over them.
You can make whatever arguments you want or put however many words in a strawman's mouth as you please but it won't change the fact that in regards to tagging this is a complete and utter mess filled with contradictions that, if implemented, would defeat the point of having tags or even boorus to aggregate easily searchable and categorised content. It just doesn't work, it's not realistic, frankly put it's a nuisance.
You need an opinion to tag most things. You can't tag black hair without an opinion whether the hair is black. Gender is extra complex and there are many factors in determining it.
sadodere said:
It's already been decided that no change would be made in this case, so you don't need to worry about "nuisances" or anything. As for the polarizing subjects, welcome to the internet. You can find arguments just like this one all over any hentai or porn site out there.
Technically, nothing's been decided yet. Until evazion makes a call, the status quo will be maintained, and the discussion will remain open for as long as people feel like chiming in. We're not still tagging her as a boy because we've decided we're not going to do anything about it, we're just doing it because we were already doing it. You don't start changing things before the discussion is over, right?
Agreed with the sentiment that JP fanbase attitudes should be a decisive factor. It's hard to dance around Danbooru's predominant supply of Bridget content being made by people who enjoy him as an otoko no ko, for people who enjoy him as an otoko no ko, and so far there's no indication at all of this changing: as mentioned a few posts back, if you look into sources of posts from Pixiv over half is tagged with 男の娘, and not a single one includes tags or descriptions you'd use for a girl. Twitter entries can't be gauged as accurately, but skimming artist interactions in replies yields similar results. Sure it's unfortunate for the odd western artwork of proudly trans Bridget to end up with "boy" slapped onto it, but this is a minuscule subset of posts and a necessary sacrifice to keep the tag from spiraling into an inconsistent mess.
Were Bridget a newly created, unambiguously trans character, I'd have no issue with tagging her as female on SFW pictures Lily Hoshikawa-style. But apparently they're neither and holding tight onto their status as a beloved otoko no ko icon, which I feel should be respected over Western nomenclature, given the nature of this site. (And however easy it may be to lump every "cope" and dissenting voice together as bigotry, keep in mind how for a significant part of the fanbase, it's not so much anger at the introduction of a trans character as heartache over the perceived loss of a femboy one, which is understandable IMO. I say let them keep this one, they've earned it.)
