Danbooru

(Fate) Swimsuit version updates, plus some questions

Posted under Tags

The bulk update request #11758 has been approved by @nonamethanks.

Show

create alias merlin_(fate/prototype)_(swimsuit_pretender) -> lady_avalon_(fate)
create alias merlin_(fate/prototype)_(swimsuit_pretender)_(first_ascension) -> lady_avalon_(first_ascension)_(fate)
create alias merlin_(fate/prototype)_(swimsuit_pretender)_(second_ascension) -> lady_avalon_(second_ascension)_(fate)
create alias merlin_(fate/prototype)_(swimsuit_pretender)_(third_ascension) -> lady_avalon_(third_ascension)_(fate)
create implication lady_avalon_(fate) -> merlin_(fate/prototype)
create implication gareth_(swimsuit_saber)_(fate) -> gareth_(fate)
create implication ibuki_douji_(swimsuit_berserker)_(fate) -> ibuki_douji_(fate)
create implication scathach_skadi_(swimsuit_ruler)_(fate) -> scathach_(fate)
rename utsumi_erice_(swimsuit_avenger)_(fate) -> utsumi_erice_(swimsuit_avenger)
create implication utsumi_erice_(swimsuit_avenger) -> utsumi_erice
create implication wu_zetian_(swimsuit_caster)_(fate) -> wu_zetian_(fate)

As far as Merlin Swimsuit Pretender goes, her current tagging is an utter mess. Plus she's addressed as Lady Avalon in the game anyway - watch this short demonstration video of her HERE - so this would make it much easier to tag her. If we want a merlin_(swimsuit_pretender)_(fate) alias to lady_avalon_(fate) in case not everyone is familiar with the name change, I could add that as well, but I honestly don't think it's necessary.

The rest are straightforward implications to the base character. The rename for Utsumi Erice is to drop the *_(fate) qualifier to make it fit with other in-universe characters not referring to mythology/history/fiction, like Illyasviel von Einzbern (Swimsuit Archer) or Sesshouin Kiara (Swimsuit Mooncancer).

My big question refers to the Swimsuit Assassin variants of the Valkyries (Ortlinde (Swimsuit Assassin) (fate), Hildr (Swimsuit Assassin) (fate), and Thrud (Swimsuit Assassin) (fate)). Should a new umbrella tag, valkyrie (swimsuit assassin) (fate), be made and the characters implicated to that, or should they just be implicated to the existing valkyrie (fate) tag? They're the only Swimsuit Servants missing from this list, so once that's sorted out, we should be good.

My big question refers to the Swimsuit Assassin variants of the Valkyries (Ortlinde (Swimsuit Assassin) (fate), Hildr (Swimsuit Assassin) (fate), and Thrud (Swimsuit Assassin) (fate)). Should a new umbrella tag, valkyrie (swimsuit assassin) (fate), be made and the characters implicated to that, or should they just be implicated to the existing valkyrie (fate) tag? They're the only Swimsuit Servants missing from this list, so once that's sorted out, we should be good.

An option would be to forgo singular swimsuit tags. That way the tag list of an artwork containing swimsuit Thrud would look something like

Thrud_(fate)
Valkyrie_(fate)
Valkyrie_(swimsuit_assassin)_(fate)

And we won't have to make new tags for every single Valkyrie.

Username_Hidden said:

An option would be to forgo singular swimsuit tags. That way the tag list of an artwork containing swimsuit Thrud would look something like

Thrud_(fate)
Valkyrie_(fate)
Valkyrie_(swimsuit_assassin)_(fate)

And we won't have to make new tags for every single Valkyrie.

That would be a more sensible and sane alternative, especially since they all wear the same thing anyway. There doesn't seem to be any objection to this idea, but I'll give it another day before making any sort of edits myself.

nonamethanks said:

Why are we even using an umbrella tag for these characters? They look nothing alike save for the outfit. We nuked nakayoshi_saber so I don't see why we need valkyrie (fate).

I guess the reasoning for the inconsistency is it takes three tags to duplicate the search rather than two (and even more than that if considering the other Fate valkyries besides the main three), so more cumbersome in both time to enter and amount of tags used. I don't think I'd care too strongly either way.

For unnamed characters we can make unnamed valkyrie (fate) or valkyrie (generic) (fate) or another similar chartag like we do for other copyrights (nyto_(generic)_(girls'_frontline) comes to mind). It's already hard to search for them since you have to exclude six other tags anyway.

For the swimsuit, given that it's a costume shared by three characters we could use a gentag instead of three chartags, because it's pretty much a uniform. Whatever we do with it though, it's not affected by the fate of valkyrie (fate).

nonamethanks said:

For unnamed characters we can make unnamed valkyrie (fate) or valkyrie (generic) (fate) or another similar chartag like we do for other copyrights (nyto_(generic)_(girls'_frontline) comes to mind). It's already hard to search for them since you have to exclude six other tags anyway.

For the swimsuit, given that it's a costume shared by three characters we could use a gentag instead of three chartags, because it's pretty much a uniform. Whatever we do with it though, it's not affected by the fate of valkyrie (fate).

Please bear with me, I’m typing this on my IPad.

If the intent is to nuke the valkyrie_(fate) tag, the three implications in the OP BUR would have to go as well, if that’s what we want.

I did write in the Valkyrie wiki about the remaining three Valkyries who are unnamed. We could go with something like blue-haired_valkyrie_(fate), black-haired_valkyrie_(fate), and purple-haired_valkyrie_(fate) as placeholder tags until they’re given names (if that ever happens). They are consistently seen in some fanarts of all the Valkyries together, since they’re all seen in Valkyrie Lancer’s Noble Phantasm -> https://www.reddit.com/r/grandorder/comments/ohcjus/the_other_valkyries_in_their_np/ (Hildr and Thrud are missing in the screenshot, so that’s nine Valkyries total. Ignore the one with blonde hair and short twin tails from the scan; she doesn’t appear to show up in the game anywhere). It’s like what’s done with all of the background magical girls in HappinessCharge Precure! who are not given names, or even the red-haired cowgirl (fate) seen during the Saber Wars II event in FGO - identifying them by their hair colors until more information is available.

Benit149 said:

I did write in the Valkyrie wiki about the remaining three Valkyries who are unnamed. We could go with something like blue-haired_valkyrie_(fate), black-haired_valkyrie_(fate), and purple-haired_valkyrie_(fate) as placeholder tags until they’re given names (if that ever happens). They are consistently seen in some fanarts of all the Valkyries together, since they’re all seen in Valkyrie Lancer’s Noble Phantasm -> https://www.reddit.com/r/grandorder/comments/ohcjus/the_other_valkyries_in_their_np/ (Hildr and Thrud are missing in the screenshot, so that’s nine Valkyries total. Ignore the one with blonde hair and short twin tails from the scan; she doesn’t appear to show up in the game anywhere). It’s like what’s done with all of the background magical girls in HappinessCharge Precure! who are not given names, or even the red-haired cowgirl (fate) seen during the Saber Wars II event in FGO - identifying them by their hair colors until more information is available.

The Valkyries in the NP are all based on designs Takeuchi did for a project called Planet:Valkyrie I can't say anything about whether she actually appeared in game off the top of my head, but blonde hair short twin tails in post #5369534 does seem to be her purported FGO version costume from that character sheet and not from Planet:Valkyrie. Could use the names from the official Planet:Valkyrie site as placeholders similar to that post until they are named in FGO, so blue-haired -> type-07_(planet:valkyrie), black-haired -> type-09_(planet:valkyrie), purple-haired -> type-02_(planet:valkyrie)

But besides those from the NP, there are also faceless Valkyrie enemy mobs faced in the game (more of what post #post #3518231 seems to be about in my mind). FGO enemy mobs are rare in images and feel like they're tagged rather inconsistently right now when they do appear (most of the time I see them with no tags at all or non-Fate related gen tags).

I apologize for the extremely late reply. Life got in the way.

First off, I removed the three implications related to Valkyrie (Geirskogul, Olrun and Rindr -> Valkyrie) from the BUR so it doesn't clash with nonamethanks' request.

EB said:

The Valkyries in the NP are all based on designs Takeuchi did for a project called Planet:Valkyrie

Could use the names from the official Planet:Valkyrie site as placeholders similar to that post until they are named in FGO, so blue-haired -> type-07_(planet:valkyrie), black-haired -> type-09_(planet:valkyrie), purple-haired -> type-02_(planet:valkyrie)

The fact that the Valkyries were borrowed from Planet:Valkyrie was a new thing that admittedly blindsided me. Looking through the official website though, I can see three Valkyries that were never brought into FGO (Type-01, Type-03, and Type-05), plus their character designs are definitely different. Basically, the Lancer Valkyries all wear the same armored dress with only slight differences, while the Swimsuit Assassin Valkyries all wear the exact same thing with no alterations whatsoever (post #5596281).

I don't think it would be a good idea to refer to the FGO counterparts with the P:W names as placeholders. Having one character tied to two copyrights at the same time is just asking for mistagging to happen. My understanding is that they should be treated as separate characters, so you'd have:

Planet:Valkyrie
type-02 (planet:valkyrie) (purple-hair)
type-07 (planet:valkyrie) (blue-hair)
type-09 (planet:valkyrie) (black-hair)

Fate/Grand Order
purple-haired valkyrie (fate)
blue-haired valkyrie (fate)
black-haired valkyrie (fate)

That way, anything that happens in FGO will not affect P:W whatsoever. Their wikis could mention their counterparts for reference though.

But besides those from the NP, there are also faceless Valkyrie enemy mobs faced in the game (more of what post #post #3518231 seems to be about in my mind). FGO enemy mobs are rare in images and feel like they're tagged rather inconsistently right now when they do appear (most of the time I see them with no tags at all or non-Fate related gen tags).

Those ones are seen in the Scandinavian Lostbelt (skip ahead to 3:49:00, their appearance is very brief) and are referred to as Envoys in the story. The only real suggestion I have is to name them something like envoy valkyrie (fate) or generic valkyrie (fate).

On a side note, the Planet:Valkyrie sound drama are on YouTube as Part 1 and Part 2 but I'm not fluent in Japanese and thus cannot glean any info from them.

Updated

Benit149 said:

As far as Merlin Swimsuit Pretender goes, her current tagging is an utter mess. Plus she's addressed as Lady Avalon in the game anyway so this would make it much easier to tag her.

Yeah, that'd definitely help shorten the tags pertaining to her. XD

They only got that long for all the qualifiers, since, despite the name on her Saint Graph, 'Lady Avalon' is just an alias in the story (plus being a Pretender, there's always that one question...). Waver has Zhuge Liang on his Saint Graph since he's a bunrei of him, but we don't call him that. Caren Hortensia is named as Amor, so we have caren_hortensia_(amor_caren), but doing merlin_(lady_avalon) might risk confusion with normal Merlin's tag set in text-only lists. Since we give unique tags to summer servants and notable outfits anyway, Lady Avalon's as good a name for her as anything.

She's a real weird tagging case because:
A: She just doesn't have a unique name. She's just a female Merlin. So to differentiate her from the male one she has to have either an appelation or a qualifier.
B: Her *concept* originated in Fate/Prototype, and her story is based on that universe. So she's called Proto Merlin like the male Saber is called Proto Saber. But he at least can be dubbed Arthur instead of Artoria.
C: Her *design* originated in Fate/Grand Order Arcade, so there's fanart of her from before it was released that are basically a gender-swap Merlin, but aren't really because it's an official gender-swap that's a separate character. So most of the fanart of that design should probably properly be tagged with FGO Arcade (for the design origin), but also Prototype (for the concept origin). Of course tagging with FGO Arcade also adds a base FGO tag.
D: Her FGO summer form, however, wears outfits that have nothing to do with Prototype or Arcade, so she just gets the FGO tag. In the story she's *still* the Merlin from Prototype, who was the one who went into the Arcade-verse and sent Arthur to the mobile-verse. And it's that same Merlin that then goes to mobile-verse and both avoids Arthur and refuses to acknowledge her origins, instead claiming she's male Merlin's little sister.

Possibly she should always have her Fate/Proto tag, since those looking for the pre-official designs can sort out anything tagged FGO and catch both Lady Avalon and the Arcade versions. But then again we don't *usually* tag every character with everything they appeared in, only what's relevant to that piece or that version, else we end up with things like post #5374886. Lady Avalon might make it more distinct as to why it's only got FGO tags.

One minor thing I'm curious on here. Do we need the scathach_skadi_(swimsuit_ruler)_(final_ascension)_(fate) tag? The current wiki description is not technically correct as it's the bikini she wears under her sweater for her second ascension. You can see the bikini straps in the second ascension artwork, and the sheer shirt in the final ascension artwork. Some artists have drawn her partially undressing from the sweater like post #5629838 and post #5634884, or still with the second ascension glasses and hairstyle in bikini like post #5604058 and post #5638251, which leaves the question (if they are to remain separate tags) whether we just tag both in those cases?

EB said:

One minor thing I'm curious on here. Do we need the scathach_skadi_(swimsuit_ruler)_(final_ascension)_(fate) tag? The current wiki description is not technically correct as it's the bikini she wears under her sweater for her second ascension. You can see the bikini straps in the second ascension artwork, and the sheer shirt in the final ascension artwork. Some artists have drawn her partially undressing from the sweater like post #5629838 and post #5634884, or still with the second ascension glasses and hairstyle in bikini like post #5604058 and post #5638251, which leaves the question (if they are to remain separate tags) whether we just tag both in those cases?

According to this demonstration of Skadi's Second Ascension sprites, you never get to see her remove her sweater dress and sleeves to show off the bikini underneath. It's only fully shown in her Final Ascension artwork. When making the tag, my logic was that, "Yes, it's true that she wears the blue bikini beneath the sweater dress, but you don't actually SEE what it looks like anywhere else but in her Final Ascension artwork." Of course, I always remain ambivalent when it comes to making Ascension chartags (because, you know, it's a bloody Winchester's mansion called the Fate franchise), so if it's better to merge the Final Ascension tag with the Second Ascension, I won't mind at all.

1