[INCOHERENT HAPPINESS]

What I find especially tragic, in a meta sense, is that the Watatsuki Sisters could've been awesome, awesome characters if they were portrayed well. Two snobbish, borderline egotistical sisters, one feminine and ladylike, the other fierce and militant? The jokes practically write themselves!

All of that went out the window when ZUN and Aki Eda decided to make them the antagonists in a curb-stomp battle to inanely humiliate Reimu, Marisa, Sakuya, and Remilia, for no other reason than for a cheap laugh. Now, the two of them are easily Touhou's most hated characters, and are almost never portrayed except in torture porn or scenes involving the residents of Eientei.

Fuck you, ZUN. Fuck you with a rusty pipe.

colBoh said:

What I find especially tragic, in a meta sense, is that the Watatsuki Sisters could've been awesome, awesome characters if they were portrayed well. Two snobbish, borderline egotistical sisters, one feminine and ladylike, the other fierce and militant? The jokes practically write themselves!

Not much of value was lost, I guess. There are tons of other Touhou ladies, and we're getting new ones almost every year.

colBoh said:
Fuck you, ZUN. Fuck you with a rusty pipe.

Zun had nothing to do with it.

He openly admitted he didn't have much to do with SSiB other than providing the general story elements. He even said a lot of the stuff in that doujin he didn't even know about until it was released. I mean, the whole thing was wildly out of character and contradicts the main games and most of the other sideworks. Eda was the one calling the shots.

Blame Eda.

It's why I say all the sideworks are non-canon. Zun let's others have way too much control for them to be valid source material.

Hoobajoob said:
It's why I say all the sideworks are non-canon. Zun let's others have way too much control for them to be valid source material.

Going by that logic, the fighting games are non-canon too, since Tasofro made them.

FRien said:

Going by that logic, the fighting games are non-canon too, since Tasofro made them.

And for that matter, DS and GFW.

FRien said:

Going by that logic, the fighting games are non-canon too, since Tasofro made them.

Yep, sounds about right.

I do like Suika and Tenshi, but since they're from sideworks... oh well. Although, IIRC they might have been in some of the main games as cameos in some endings, so that legitimizes them a little bit.

I'm just saying, for the sake of creative integrity in touhou it's best to assume its non-canon until ZUN works with it by himself in the main games.

Hoobajoob said:

Zun had nothing to do with it.

He openly admitted he didn't have much to do with SSiB other than providing the general story elements. He even said a lot of the stuff in that doujin he didn't even know about until it was released. I mean, the whole thing was wildly out of character and contradicts the main games and most of the other sideworks. Eda was the one calling the shots.

Blame Eda.

It's why I say all the sideworks are non-canon. Zun let's others have way too much control for them to be valid source material.

No, he only said that he didn't explained in a detailed way some things, like what kind of super-weaponry the lunarians have, but the fact that Remilia went to the moon with the others, were all defeated by the lunarians and returned to gensokyo was decided by ZUN.
Claiming that everything that happened outside the main shooter games is not canon doesn't make sense because all the stories, characters and events are all creted by ZUN for HIS series.
Cage in Lunatic Runagate was all written by ZUN without intermediaries (so it's completely canon), and almost everything that is said is the same that happened in the comic. There are minor differences between the two, but at the end, they are pretty consistent with each other. The only reason for him collaborating with external artists for the comics is that he's not able to draw an entire comic by himself and needs someone else doing it for him.

Hoobajoob said:

Yep, sounds about right.

I do like Suika and Tenshi, but since they're from sideworks... oh well. Although, IIRC they might have been in some of the main games as cameos in some endings, so that legitimizes them a little bit.

I'm just saying, for the sake of creative integrity in touhou it's best to assume its non-canon until ZUN works with it by himself in the main games.

So Kokoro is a completely non-canon character that doesn't exist and is a made up character which ZUN obviously has no care about? On top of that PC-98 Touhou is completely non-canon and never existed?

That's a rather skewed view you have of Touhou. Well if that's your cup of tea, then I guess that's your view of it.

colBoh said:
inanely humiliate

dat fanboyism

Hoobajoob said:

Yep, sounds about right.

I do like Suika and Tenshi, but since they're from sideworks... oh well. Although, IIRC they might have been in some of the main games as cameos in some endings, so that legitimizes them a little bit.

You do realize I was being sarcastic?

I like Yorihime, and I don't care for what Reimu/Marisa/Remilia/Sakuya/Yukari fanboyz will say about her.

FRien said:

I like Yorihime, and I don't care for what Reimu/Marisa/Remilia/Sakuya/Yukari fanboyz will say about her.

Pretty much all that needs to be said.

colBoh said:
Now, the two of them are easily Touhou's most hated characters

Personally Toyohime is my favorite character... I dont think its that they are hated but more so its that

FRien said:
Reimu/Marisa/Remilia/Sakuya/Yukari fanboyz

dont like them and the fact they are non-game characters which are much less popular than even the DDC cast and Kokoro which havent even been around a year.

Flandey said:

Personally Toyohime is my favorite character... I dont think its that they are hated but more so its that

dont like them and the fact they are non-game characters which are much less popular than even the DDC cast and Kokoro which havent even been around a year.

According to what I've read (need back up evidence if anyone has any), ZUN in an interview said Yorihime was intentionally made to be an overpowered and rather bland character, specifically only for the manga. This is probably why most followers don't like the Watatsuki sisters in general. I personally don't like them for being bland, I don't care about how strong they are. Regardless, they don't sit at the bottom of my list.

Hoobajoob said:

Yep, sounds about right.

I do like Suika and Tenshi, but since they're from sideworks... oh well. Although, IIRC they might have been in some of the main games as cameos in some endings, so that legitimizes them a little bit.

I'm just saying, for the sake of creative integrity in touhou it's best to assume its non-canon until ZUN works with it by himself in the main games.

That is absolutely ridiculous. Why would you think that?

Kumihou said:

According to what I've read (need back up evidence if anyone has any), ZUN in an interview said Yorihime was intentionally made to be an overpowered and rather bland character, specifically only for the manga. This is probably why most followers don't like the Watatsuki sisters in general. I personally don't like them for being bland, I don't care about how strong they are. Regardless, they don't sit at the bottom of my list.

The reason they hate her is that she beat Reimu, Marisa, Sakuya and Remelia in a row. by herself, with no breaks. She is Reimu, with several centuries of training and a fighter's mentality. If Reimu bothered to actually practice, she would be just as broken as Yorihime, since they both have the exact same skill set. (Summoning Shinto gods, and there is literally a shinto god for everything.)

cd_young said:

If Reimu bothered to actually practice, she would be just as broken as Yorihime, since they both have the exact same skill set. (Summoning Shinto gods, and there is literally a shinto god for everything.)

Reimu doesn't need practice since she already has the skill to equal Yorihime. She requires knowledge of the shinto gods which is why she lost to Yorihime in the first place. The one god that Reimu should know but doesn't, yet many people she hangs out with does, she doesn't even bother to ask or communicate the name. If she did she might have more donations or solve incidents with greater ease maybe both. She is also implied that she could become a god or a youkai depending how she continues her life.

Flandey said:

Personally Toyohime is my favorite character...

Same, but for a different reason than you said. From the few appearances she's had in official/semi-official works, she looks to be an even kinder and more generous person than Byakuren, as long as she hasn't mounted her lunar high horse (which seems to be why some of the fandom hates her), and despite her age and lineage she enjoys taking it easy. Plus it takes a hell of an overpowered monster to fend off a Yukari-led invasion, and iirc it's implied that she had a big hand in doing that a thousand years ago. Yori's divine power channeling and the defense force would only go so far against Yukari herself, so it would only make sense that Toyo would need to get involved. Master ZUN wishes to do more Watatsuki-focused works but just can't seem to get around to doing it yet, but it should be interesting when he does.

I'd definitely like to see Toyo go off on her own and goof off 3 fairies-style and mess with the cast she hasn't met yet, which I think would be most of the game-based characters. Something centered around her and her sister's personal histories could also work well for something serious, but seeing her in light-hearted troll mode or even engaging in real combat would provide better potential entertainment than the other written works IMO. I doubt it'd ever happen, but it'd be nice if it did.

Diabolicwave said:
Reimu doesn't need practice since she already has the skill to equal Yorihime. She requires knowledge of the shinto gods which is why she lost to Yorihime in the first place. The one god that Reimu should know but doesn't, yet many people she hangs out with does, she doesn't even bother to ask or communicate the name. If she did she might have more donations or solve incidents with greater ease maybe both. She is also implied that she could become a god or a youkai depending how she continues her life.

From Mystic Square: "Shrine maiden of the Hakurei Shrine, she has some spirit-power by nature, but lacks training. Her weapon is mighty Yin-Yang orb, but her control is somewhat unstable."

From Story in Eastern Wonderland: "A shrine maiden of Hakurei Shrine, who has the natural-born spititual power and lacks training."

From Phantasmagoria of Dim.Dream: "A shrine maiden of Hakurei Shrine, who has the natural-born spititual power and lacks training."

From Lotus Land Story: "The shrine maiden of Hakurei Shrine, who possesses natural-born spiritual power and lacks training."

From Mystic Square: "A shrine maiden of Hakurei Shrine, who has the natural-born spiritual power and lacks training."

From Shuusou Gyoku: "A shrine maiden of Hakurei Shrine. Talented, but lacks training. Basically, she doesn't like having to train."

From Perfect Cherry Blossom: "She hates training, and because of this, lacks ability. So her skill is quite so-so."

From Immaterial and Missing Power: "She lacks training in both melee and spells (or rather, she rarely does them), but she covers that up with the numerous talents she's born with."

She is naturally talented in a lot of things but she is spiritually almost impotent, because since she's so talented in such a broad spectrum, she felt focusing on spirituality would be a waste of her time, this lazy attitude lead the god which inhabited her shrine to up and leave.

The ONLY TIME she ever bothered to train her spiritual power to channel the gods of Shinto was when she was convinced to go to the moon with Remelia, and offered up to her to be the "engine."

Even then she was effortlessly beaten by Yorihime because unlike the latter, who had several centuries to master her abilities, Reimu only had a month. Her advancement was impressive, but she was still out-muscled by someone with far more experience.

cd_young said:

she was still out-muscled by someone with far more experience.

That was my point. Each of her profiles bascally makes her into a prodigy of shrine maidens but lacks any drive for it. The experience that she was outclassed and even stated by Yorihime herself was the knowledge of the gods to call upon.

Flandey said:

Personally Toyohime is my favorite character... I dont think its that they are hated but more so its that[fanboyz] dont like them and the fact they are non-game characters which are much less popular than even the DDC cast and Kokoro which havent even been around a year.

Except that the fanboyz are loud and nosy. Just look at that picture, for a single good picture of Yorihime, we get a damn powerlevel argument with the old "ablublu reimu kick ass".
I remember a friend saying that powerlevel argument were the touhou equivalent of the Godwin point, and damn he was right.

And personally I like Yorihime because she's hard-working, serious, and she has a ponytail.

Oh people don't even bother put a canon or anything here.

If Yorihime beat all of people except Reimu, no one would hate her.
If she beat Marisa only, nobody care, if she beat Sakuya only, nobody care.
You hate her... because she beats your Reimu... just admit it already~

*sigh* Why didn't I shut my big fucking mouth? I'm one of the few Touhou fans who actually like the Watatsuki Sisters, and I explain why I like them, but I say one disparaging word about ZUN and Aki Eda, and the conversation derails into this.

colBoh said:

*sigh* Why didn't I shut my big fucking mouth? I'm one of the few Touhou fans who actually like the Watatsuki Sisters, and I explain why I like them, but I say one disparaging word about ZUN and Aki Eda, and the conversation derails into this.

Isn't this fandom great?

colBoh said:

*sigh* Why didn't I shut my big fucking mouth? I'm one of the few Touhou fans who actually like the Watatsuki Sisters, and I explain why I like them, but I say one disparaging word about ZUN and Aki Eda, and the conversation derails into this.

I think a character design where she is absolutely lazy and very careless, invade other people land and win a Watatsuki Sisters who intend to protect her people and lunarian would be absolutely stupid and ridiculous as well.

And the fans hate them only because they beat Reimu, noting else.

Nut_kun said:

I think a character design where she is absolutely lazy and very careless, invade other people land and win a Watatsuki Sisters who intend to protect her people and lunarian would be absolutely stupid and ridiculous as well.

And the fans hate them only because they beat Reimu, noting else.

Not only that, they often forget that, if we take the fighting games as canon, Suika, Tenshi and Kokoro beat the shrine maiden too in their respective incidents - the latter even beat Byakuren and Toyosatomimi at the same time too!

WingedIkaros said:

Not only that, they often forget that, if we take the fighting games as canon, Suika, Tenshi and Kokoro beat the shrine maiden too in their respective incidents - the latter even beat Byakuren and Toyosatomimi at the same time too!

The difference is that Yorihime did it quite easily, and after just having defeated 3 other pretty strong characters.

Anyway, while i don't like the Watatsuki sisters in a particular way (especially Toyohime since we didn't saw very much about her), i don't hate them either. At least they had some "reasons" to be this strong (for example being really old and thus having a great amount of time to become so powerful, and lunarians in general are way stronger than youkai and humans), unlike Marisa who defeated "things" like Yukari, Flandre, Yuyuko and other absurdly-strong characters because why not.

Nut_kun said:

I think a character design where she is absolutely lazy and very careless, invade other people land and win a Watatsuki Sisters who intend to protect her people and lunarian would be absolutely stupid and ridiculous as well.

And the fans hate them only because they beat Reimu, noting else.

Actually, a decent amount of dislike for Yorihime - especially mine - stems from a specific part of that fight.

It is established that, as long as Yorihime's sword is clean, she can summon whatever the hell god she wants. After a long and convoluted ploy gets the sword dirty, she *summons a god to clean it*.

When a character flagrantly no-sells her "one weakness", it is a sign of a terribly written character.

PotatoCan said:
... kinder and more generous person than Byakuren...

Really now? No, I do find Toyohime to be quite the kind and gentle person from her portrayal in Inaba and CoLR and she had a legit reason to be hostile in SSiB, but she's certainly not that kind. Maybe because I like Yorihime better than her.

Reason:

FRien said:
Personally I like Yorihime because she's hard-working, serious, and she has a ponytail.

FRien, my man! Gimme a high-five!

WingedIkaros said:
Not only that, they often forget that, if we take the fighting games as canon, Suika, Tenshi and Kokoro beat the shrine maiden too in their respective incidents - the latter even beat Byakuren and Toyosatomimi at the same time too!

If there's one thing that I don't like coming from HM, it's this. People trivialize Byakuren and Miko because of that last fight and make Kokoro this uber strong character. Just to be clear, I do think that Kokoro is strong and I accept her victory in that fight, except I don't think that those two were taking that fight seriously. Heck, they weren't serious during the whole incident in HM. Just look at the dialog.
And if you think it's so important to mention them beating Reimu, then both Byakuren and Miko beat her too in HM, and their stories are canon. They even told her that she's not there yet, supporting the fact that she lacks training and experience. Seriously, people really need to NOT consider the final story to be the only thing canon from the fighting games.
But hey, that's just me getting sidetracked and stopping people from degrading Byakuren. Take that as you will.

Now, about the Watatsukis, all I gotta say is that they didn't get portrayed well to the fandom. ZUN only told Eda how it goes in general, but didn't get in details on how things happened in-between. So yes, Yorihime did won against them, but not that easily. And most of what happened during the fights(what weapons they use, what gods were summoned, etc) were Eda's imaginations. I won't say that it's his fault, besides, what's done is done.
Also, the fact that most people are not fond(or too lazy) to read something other than comics. Be honest, how many of you read CoLR or SoPM and the likes? This is true to most Japanese fandom too.
If you did read CoLR, you should have a better opinion of those two.

monhan said:

Be honest, how many of you read CoLR or SoPM and the likes?

*raises hand*
The only ones I couldn't find are FS ch14-16 and WaHH ch21-22.

Diabolicwave said:

*raises hand*
The only ones I couldn't find are FS ch14-16 and WaHH ch21-22.

I need links to what you guys are talking about. My interest has been attracted.

TheStormSeeker said:
I need links to what you guys are talking about. My interest has been attracted.

The Touhou Wiki (wikis; there are two of them) has translations of the major print works. A few spotty parts on some and some parts that havent been translated yet but they should all be there eventually.
Touhou Wiki
Project Touhou Wiki
In both cases, check "Print Works."

Aluminoid said:

Actually, a decent amount of dislike for Yorihime - especially mine - stems from a specific part of that fight.

It is established that, as long as Yorihime's sword is clean, she can summon whatever the hell god she wants. After a long and convoluted ploy gets the sword dirty, she *summons a god to clean it*.

When a character flagrantly no-sells her "one weakness", it is a sign of a terribly written character.

Well I can understand that but isn't Reimu has no weakness as well?

Like those who know her, Yorihime is Reimu, with far more experience and age. Not mention a willing to fight for her own people.
As far as I know, only weakness she has is that she lacks of training and being careless to not even bother about training to get better.
Is this a sign of "terribly designed character" too?
I'm not counting "Lazy" and Her own "Spell card rule that allow time limit on each spellcard" because if that was Reimu weakness it would be absolutely stupid idea for such character design weakness.

I never find a reason to like Reimu as character, not even one just like Yorihime.
Because "terribly written character" isn't happen to just that girl. Reimu too.

How come she is so strong without training and just some luck? she not even worship her own god. how possible she could use her power?
how possible she could become a god herself when all she's doing is being lazy and doing absolutely nothing in her life?
How come she can make a lot of process and get stronger every time by doing nothing?
Is this a sign of "terribly designed character" too?

Is Reimu is unbeatable? No, but she has 99% win ratio with absolutely no good reason.

ZUN never explain these, not in any official books or games, all he said is that Reimu is one hell of lucky person and ONLY that.
I learn more than enough that ZUN is not good at character design at all, many problem had been made in canon series already. And there are many more on character designed mistakes.

Reimu's luck is her strength. She was born lucky, and born with amazing power, already born strong.

The compairison to her and Marisa has been made enough in the series. Despite the both of them being normal human girls, Marisa had to work her ass off to get to where she is.

Tetsamaru said:

Reimu's luck is her strength. She was born lucky, and born with amazing power, already born strong.

The compairison to her and Marisa has been made enough in the series. Despite the both of them being normal human girls, Marisa had to work her ass off to get to where she is.

Even with the most laziness idea for character design. still lost to Yorihime

just face that.

And that is only thing you can say about Reimu's bios, noting more about her own character to be interesting.

People only love her because of her power and to see she lost is absolutely broken their heart and this is what happens~

If Yorihime had been claimed as bad designed, then Reimu would be a same.

I'm not even sure why you particulary responded back to my comment. I wasn't disputing anyone's comment. I was simply adding in the compairison between Reimu's brokeness to Marisa's hard work ethic.

Tetsamaru said:

I'm not even sure why you particulary responded back to my comment. I wasn't disputing anyone's comment. I was simply adding in the compairison between Reimu's brokeness to Marisa's hard work ethic.

Then simply thinking I adding a even bit more of Reimu's brokenness still lost to some lunarian's leader.

monhan said:

Really now? No, I do find Toyohime to be quite the kind and gentle person from her portrayal in Inaba and CoLR and she had a legit reason to be hostile in SSiB, but she's certainly not that kind. Maybe because I like Yorihime better than her.

Reason:

I like a ponytail, too, and appearance-wise, Yori is almost as appealing as Toyo to me, but that doesn't have anything to do with personality. A noticeable part of it is Toyo is the ONLY character in the series that hasn't yet been depicted in any (semi-)official work being a troll/a slave-driver/generally cruel toward Udonge. It also seems as if her people's culture is keeping her from being as kind to humans and earth youkai in general, though she was never shown attacking or mouthing off at them (except Yukari, though they ended up not fighting again after all).

This is why I try to never get TOO deep in Touhou canon/fanon and what clashes between.

...aaaaaaand watch as everyone ignores me like the plague so they can keep having their arguments.

In this Picture

Danbooru discusses Touhou and the fashion regarding it

I rather like Yorihime, but I dislike Toyohime for the whole "threatening to blow up all Gensokyo for the crime of being born" thing. She seems all right in Inaba, but boy is she unpleasant in Silent Sinner in Blue.

lol what is this yet another rant omg btw i read the manga and CoLR they don't seem that bad at all. And please let not wank the characters too much you guys honestly believe that ''1 mil gods'' thing and that there is literally a god for everything ? i personally don't. Look at how many gods there are in shinto not that many and the gods in shinto are not that powerful they are more towards unity and peace that is what i understand at least. The only rely powerful ones are like i don't know Susanoo, Amaterasu ,Tsukuyomi,Izanagi, Izanami like Jesus in the story of the inaba rabbit tow or more gods died from falling from a high place to the ground yea so much for being gods.Yet again in the manga Yorihime did have all the reasons to win it was the only story were reimu and the others are ''the bad guys'' after all they did invade there land and reimu didn't seem to want to win any way maybe bc she know it was wrong what they were doing ? You know what is rely scary ? that we humans the outside humans have the power to erase every last one of those girls more specifically the youkais and the gods by simply disbelieving by not being afraid of youkais and not having any faith in the there gods Hatate also said something similar in a print work and we have a much more advanced technology from a military stand point at least i mean the lunarians have like 17 century rifles and a feudal city they do have probably the most advance magic yet again in one of the games before the win ones there was a girl from the outside that uses the power of science combined with some magic as well i think i am not sure.

HisRotundity said:

I rather like Yorihime, but I dislike Toyohime for the whole "threatening to blow up all Gensokyo for the crime of being born" thing. She seems all right in Inaba, but boy is she unpleasant in Silent Sinner in Blue.

To put it in perspective, she was facing a famous youkai commander who threatened the moon TWICE. While most people would rape your face with a pitchwork if you try to invade them just once, Yukari tried twice to attack the moon.

monhan said:

FRien, my man! Gimme a high-five!

A pony-tailed tsundere, what's not to love about her?
Well, she's married, but some arsenic can fix that.

Toyohime represents my least favorite kind of person, and that's the only real reason I dislike her. (Plus, I could beat her, but it would quite literally be a huge pain. Being indestructible isn't all it's cracked up to be.) I don't really have any opinions on Yorihime, except that she probably has high blood pressure. It's the Lunarian society itself that I hate: going on about purity and how they're better than us, when they're still quite human. They're just human a little differently than you and I.

Also, lately I've found myself comparing them to Nazis, and it's not all that much of a stretch...

Zaku_Zelo said:

That is absolutely ridiculous. Why would you think that?

Read my other post?

Hoobajoob said:

It's why I say all the sideworks are non-canon. Zun let's others have way too much control for them to be valid source material.

That's called creative integrity. Touhou is a bit special in that regard. Unlike most other games and stories it's not a stone soup of ideas from a bunch of people, but rather the brainchild of a single guy. That means if anyone else touches it then it loses that integrity making it no longer canon. There's no interpretation or bias going on, that's objective right there.

There's nothing ridiculous about respecting creative integrity.

Hoobajoob said:

Read my other post?

That's called creative integrity. Touhou is a bit special in that regard. Unlike most other games and stories it's not a stone soup of ideas from a bunch of people, but rather the brainchild of a single guy. That means if anyone else touches it then it loses that integrity making it no longer canon. There's no interpretation or bias going on, that's objective right there.

There's nothing ridiculous about respecting creative integrity.

The fighters are official games, licensed and designed by ZUN. Whatever ZUN didn't do directly in them was overseen and approved by ZUN. The characters from them appear in solo-ZUN games, the events in them are referenced in solo-ZUN games.
You're saying ALL of the print works, the four fighters, and Fairy Wars are not canon? Well, sorry, you're factually wrong.

I'm not quite sure what's going on, but I think you're both arguing the same side.
I'll sum it up: ANYTHING that ZUN has had any role in, that deals with Touhou, is 100% canon. NO EXCEPTIONS. If you look at the front page of en.touhouwiki.net, all of the works listed there, games, manga, whatever, they're all canon.
I'm only stating fact here; if you were talking about something else, I apologize.

she's married (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻.

Hoobajoob said:

Yep, sounds about right.

I do like Suika and Tenshi, but since they're from sideworks... oh well. Although, IIRC they might have been in some of the main games as cameos in some endings, so that legitimizes them a little bit.

I'm just saying, for the sake of creative integrity in touhou it's best to assume its non-canon until ZUN works with it by himself in the main games.

But Urban Legend in Limbo is a direct prequel to Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom. By your logic ULiL isn't canon since it wasn't made by Zun and only Zun, thus LoLK isn't canon either.

LOGIC

colBoh said:

*sigh* Why didn't I shut my big fucking mouth? I'm one of the few Touhou fans who actually like the Watatsuki Sisters, and I explain why I like them, but I say one disparaging word about ZUN and Aki Eda, and the conversation derails into this.

No no, don't play the victim here you years ago you. Plus, most of the comments aren't really about Toyohime or even the Watatsuki in general.

colBoh said:

What I find especially tragic, in a meta sense, is that the Watatsuki Sisters could've been awesome, awesome characters if they were portrayed well. Two snobbish, borderline egotistical sisters, one feminine and ladylike, the other fierce and militant? The jokes practically write themselves!

All of that went out the window when ZUN and Aki Eda decided to make them the antagonists in a curb-stomp battle to inanely humiliate Reimu, Marisa, Sakuya, and Remilia, for no other reason than for a cheap laugh. Now, the two of them are easily Touhou's most hated characters, and are almost never portrayed except in torture porn or scenes involving the residents of Eientei.

Fuck you, ZUN. Fuck you with a rusty pipe.

LALA867 said:

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Well, on the bright side, there's some works in the fandom that "more or less" try to regulate them, such as Touhou_-_Yorihime's_Gensokyo_(Temu), in which Yori probably ventures out in gensokyo to amend for what she did? (never read the series, specially since it's far bigger and wider in the Pixiv page of Temu), koishi_komeiji's_heart-throbbing_adventure maded by sentaku-bune, in which aside of making them EVEN MORE OF A JERK than their canon counterparts, killing almost all of gensokyo and also betraying one of their comrades, they did got what they deserved... and by they, i meant Yorihime (and a few moon bunnies also died, sadly. Toyohime, and other moon rabbits are still alive though), granted, she's was the most hated of the two (unless Toyo is also hated for being overpowered too?) and she met the end by the persons that swore to protect gensokyo... and also died too. (at least one thing that yori did in kkhta was actually killing Flandre), and then, there's the_sealed_esoteric_history maded by kyoto fantasy troupe (one of my favorite fanimations, maybe bordering with The m-1 grand prix?) in which their introduction episode "Moon" showed them as quite heroic girls taking out the first invading youkai that invanded the moon long before any of the normal (or pc-98) touhou events, Yukari was portrayed as a villain in this though... and then, there's Touhou_-_Mamange_(koyama_shigeru) maded by Koyama shigeru, in which both Toyo and Yori are shown as good parental figures for Reisen... and by that, i meant great grand-parental figures, since they got Eirin the first, first, and then she got Reisen... granted, lil' reisen really enjoyed being with her grandmas, as well that Yori is quite overprotective with Reisen when she was little. (also, they're still alive in that universe, meaning they can see their great grandaughter, Reisen the second grow up to be a good woman). and then, there's the m-1 grand prix series, granted, i onñy seen Toyo as a judge and haven't seen Yori on it... or even both as duo for the comedic stuff, then again, this was a comedy series...

neither way, one of the best (or worse, depending where you are in the spectrum) things of the fanfiction is that you can create your very own ideas or delusions about a certain character if you have read from the source material, or you can trow it out the window and do your own speculations, drawings, manga, novels, porn, gore or cookie, the decision is yours and yours only, and you can ask or not help from someone else if you want to give you a hand on the designing. granted, just don't ask me, i'm not good on lunarian (or Hifuu, or basically anything raelated to Touhou) story...

/expand

When other artists have better ideas and can utilize them unlike ZUN we are in deep fucking trouble . Still hate KKHTA to this day because it shits on their character

AjmolHussain said:

When other artists have better ideas and can utilize them unlike ZUN we are in deep fucking trouble .

Are we though? Like really, are we? In the end these are still fanfics. Sure they may have good ideas, but that's alot of fanfics. It doesn't make the canon any better or worse

WhatWillYouDoWithoutMeOp said:

Are we though? Like really, are we? In the end these are still fanfics. Sure they may have good ideas, but that's alot of fanfics. It doesn't make the canon any better or worse

I get your point , I'm just passionate