Sorry Seija, you've been outclassed.

[deleted]

Maybe she'll get mentored.

Seija goes opposite of the "norm"
Sagume's words are flipped turned upside down.

Searchwanted said:

Seija goes opposite of the world.
The world goes opposite of Sagume('s words).

Much fixes applied.

tfisher93 said:

Much fixes applied.

That ability is scary, its probably more dangerous than yuyuko's death ability

tfisher93 said:

Seija goes opposite of the world.
The world goes opposite of Sagume('s words).

So if Sagume decides to turn the whole world upside down, does that mean Seija would be the only one who would remain the same as before?

iori98 said:

That ability is scary, its probably more dangerous than yuyuko's death ability

Well, Yuyuko's ability is instantaneous, while Sagume's is described as being a gradual change (like, if she said "the sky is red", it won't just suddenly turn red, it'll do so sometime soon because of a weather phenomena or something), but yeah, it has a far greater scope, far bigger applications, and far scarier possibilities, too. No wonder she doesn't speak much.

It's probably as versatile as or even more so than Yukari's ability.

So, reading up on this character from a spoiler, I have to say... Hooooooooly!!!

I'll just say this:
...she's unbelievable. She's so good, she could beat Satori in chess, twice, in a row. I don't doubt it.

KazuyaRazuKazama said:

So, reading up on this character from a spoiler, I have to say... Hooooooooly!!!

I'll just say this:
...she's unbelievable. She's so good, she could beat Satori in chess, twice, in a row. I don't doubt it.

So if she says...
"I will never win!"
Would this incident never be solved?

OMGkillitwithfire said:

So if she says...
"I will never win!"
Would this incident never be solved?

...I am affraid we just found a new contender for the most absurdly powerful character price.

OMGkillitwithfire said:

So if she says...
"I will never win!"
Would this incident never be solved?

At least she has a goddess of hate to worship.

OMGkillitwithfire said:

So if she says...
"I will never win!"
Would this incident never be solved?

So what happens when she says, "I am lying right now."?

Universe divide by zero?

NNescio said:

So what happens when she says, "I am lying right now."?

Universe divide by zero?

maybe the last time she did that, big bang happen who would have know.

Reading Sagume's profile, it's a really tricky ability than could endager Sagume herself if not use skillfully.
If she actually can't accomplish anything because everything she tries would become a failure, it means that if she wants to do something, simply talking about it (in the opposite way) wouldn't be enough. If she tries to win against somoene by using this ability, she wouldn't be able to do it, not directly at least. So yes, infinite potential like in Yukari's case, but unlike Yukari's, not really good in short times.

Also,

On an unrelated note, is cp shorthand for shipping in Japanese?

[KN] said:

Reading Sagume's profile, it's a really tricky ability than could endager Sagume herself if not use skillfully.
If she actually can't accomplish anything because everything she tries would become a failure, it means that if she wants to do something, simply talking about it (in the opposite way) wouldn't be enough. If she tries to win against somoene by using this ability, she wouldn't be able to do it, not directly at least. So yes, infinite potential like in Yukari's case, but unlike Yukari's, not really good in short times.

Also,

it seems lunarians aren't really much more powerful than youkai, after all. Sagume's profile indicates that even they wouldn't have an easy time against the youkai of Gensokyo.

What about Toyohime's fan of destruction?

Searchwanted said:

What about Toyohime's fan of destruction?

Given how that fan works, it's still a physical attack that wouldn't work well against youkai or gods (ghosts would probably just pass through it unaffected), since it's simply a really strong wind, and Gensokyo has a lot of characters capable of mass destruction too. Think about Marisa, Okuu, Remilia, Suika, Tenshi, or Yuugi.
Also, i believe one of the reasons Toyohime was hated is because we never got an explanation for her "so much better than earthlings" stuff, especially after ZUN made characters like Yukari (and some others) seem invincible, basically describing her as nearly-omnipotent, with "easiliy enough power to annihilate all of Gensokyo", and an ability "whose danger and potency go behind immagination".
So yeah, Yorihime is one thing because summoning the various gods gives her almost unlimited possibilities, but Toyohime has nothing to really make her much more impressive than anyone i named above.

[KN] said:

Given how that fan works, it's still a physical attack that wouldn't work well against youkai or gods (ghosts would probably just pass through it unaffected), since it's simply a really strong wind, and Gensokyo has a lot of characters capable of mass destruction too. Think about Marisa, Okuu, Remilia, Suika, Tenshi, or Yuugi.
Also, i believe one of the reasons Toyohime was hated is because we never got an explanation for her "so much better than earthlings" stuff, especially after ZUN made characters like Yukari (and some others) seem invincible, basically describing her as nearly-omnipotent, with "easiliy enough power to annihilate all of Gensokyo", and an ability "whose danger and potency go behind immagination".
So yeah, Yorihime is one thing because summoning the various gods gives her almost unlimited possibilities, but Toyohime has nothing to really make her much more impressive than anyone i named above.

Toyohime's fan doesn't just make a strong wind. It makes a strong wind that purifies things on an atomic level; and, as we learned from Sagume's profile, purifying something on Earth means to entirely annihilate it. Ghosts, as you said, would be unnafected, since they are pure, and maybe some gods too, but youkai (and everything else, really; the whole Earth is impure) would probably be doomed.

She does describe it as the moon's most advanced weapon, so it likely isn't something that foot soldiers carry.

Her actualy ability, outside of her fan, seems to be a variation of Yukari's, but it's barely touched at all so who knows.

Talking a bit about Lunarians and their invasion, it's interesting to note that the prologue made sure to mention that the tengu ignored the giant mechanical spider that was purifying the land. Eirin says that the youkai would be entirely unable to interfere to begin with. It's likely that, while the lunarians themselves (or, most likely, the moon rabbits) might have some difficulty in conquering the place if they attacked directly, their purification tools simply can't be matched by the youkai (since they are, after all, VERY impure beings).

[KN] said:

Given how that fan works, it's still a physical attack that wouldn't work well against youkai or gods (ghosts would probably just pass through it unaffected), since it's simply a really strong wind, and Gensokyo has a lot of characters capable of mass destruction too. Think about Marisa, Okuu, Remilia, Suika, Tenshi, or Yuugi.
Also, i believe one of the reasons Toyohime was hated is because we never got an explanation for her "so much better than earthlings" stuff, especially after ZUN made characters like Yukari (and some others) seem invincible, basically describing her as nearly-omnipotent, with "easiliy enough power to annihilate all of Gensokyo", and an ability "whose danger and potency go behind immagination".
So yeah, Yorihime is one thing because summoning the various gods gives her almost unlimited possibilities, but Toyohime has nothing to really make her much more impressive than anyone i named above.

Which sister has the weapon that disintegrates stuff?

Sagus222 said:
Toyohime's fan doesn't just make a strong wind. It makes a strong wind that purifies things on an atomic level; and, as we learned from Sagume's profile, purifying something on Earth means to entirely annihilate it. Ghosts, as you said, would be unnafected, since they are pure, and maybe some gods too, but youkai (and everything else, really; the whole Earth is impure) would probably be doomed.

Strange, then, that a hell fairy like Clownpiece could be purified and not only just survive, but exist as pure LIFE FORCE (or as I like to think, pure trollery).

Reaver225 said:

Strange, then, that a hell fairy like Clownpiece could be purified and not only just survive, but exist as pure LIFE FORCE (or as I like to think, pure trollery).

It's not the same kind of "purity" as the lunarian's concept of it (no life and death, which brings nearly ageless immortality), in fact translators are considering using another term for the lunarian concept, to differentiate them.
Junko's ability to purify things is about refinement (that probably brings out hidden potential, hence a stage 5 boss fairy).

Exactly as KN said. The fairies that Junko "purified" are actually 100% impurity (because they are life force, and life brings with it death). They are pure impurity. Perhaps this is too much for even Lunarian weapons to counter; or perhaps, just the fact that they are fairies (and therefore respawn when killed) make it impossible for them to get rid of them.

Which leads to the best thing ever: The Lunarians, supposedly the strongest race in the Touhou-verse, were basically nearly completely defeated by a bunch of goddamn fairies.

Oh boy, here we go again...

You guys have fallen into the same old "taking things in touhou too literally" trap again. She's not infinitely powerful and neither is anyone else. You guys are attempting to absolutely define their powers and slap a power level on everything when even the game itself doesn't. You've all jumped into the realm of headcanon at this point.

Sagus222 said:

Exactly as KN said. The fairies that Junko "purified" are actually 100% impurity (because they are life force, and life brings with it death). They are pure impurity. Perhaps this is too much for even Lunarian weapons to counter; or perhaps, just the fact that they are fairies (and therefore respawn when killed) make it impossible for them to get rid of them.

Which leads to the best thing ever: The Lunarians, supposedly the strongest race in the Touhou-verse, were basically nearly completely defeated by a bunch of goddamn fairies.

So that must be why Cirno's "weapons" are strong against Eirin in Megamari.

[KN] said:

Reading Sagume's profile, it's a really tricky ability than could endager Sagume herself if not use skillfully.
If she actually can't accomplish anything because everything she tries would become a failure, it means that if she wants to do something, simply talking about it (in the opposite way) wouldn't be enough. If she tries to win against somoene by using this ability, she wouldn't be able to do it, not directly at least. So yes, infinite potential like in Yukari's case, but unlike Yukari's, not really good in short times.

Also,

it seems lunarians aren't really much more powerful than youkai, after all. Sagume's profile indicates that even they wouldn't have an easy time against the youkai of Gensokyo.

That's what makes her ability so interesting.
For example, if she make a statement like "I will definitely lose.", then yes, her power will make sure that she'll win in the end. But the problem is that "how" it's achieved is not certain.
Let's take that previous example. Even if she did win, there's no guarantee that she won't be harmed/die in the process if that is what it takes to achieve that goal. It should be noted that Sagume's ability is not reality warping, but it's one that skewed the future to make certain opposite events happens. Thus she cannot change facts that already happened, and the event needs to be realistically possible, no matter how unlikely the chance for it to happen as long as it's not completely 0. The heroines in LoLK simply managed to do her bidding in a way that didn't endanger the Lunarians. There's no guarantee that it'll happen smoothly, which is why she's constantly being careful with her words.

So like you said, it has great potential, but also with some shortcomings.
It's a fun ability with unique mechanics behind it. Hopefully many artists will make good use of that.

Sagus222 said:

Exactly as KN said. The fairies that Junko "purified" are actually 100% impurity (because they are life force, and life brings with it death). They are pure impurity. Perhaps this is too much for even Lunarian weapons to counter; or perhaps, just the fact that they are fairies (and therefore respawn when killed) make it impossible for them to get rid of them.

Which leads to the best thing ever: The Lunarians, supposedly the strongest race in the Touhou-verse, were basically nearly completely defeated by a bunch of goddamn fairies.

The thing is that ZUN has always used the Shinto concept of "impurity(kegare)" when talking about the Lunarian's disdain of everything impure. Though they have pretty much almighty technologies, this impurity is such that even being touched by it is enough to make them not count as a Lunarian anymore. What makes the purified fairies able to do what they did to the Lunarians, is the fact that fairies are a force of nature, and the essence of total impurity they have within them now are imprinted to the environment way more than any other beings. To the Lunarians their existence is like a plague, not something you can fight with force so they have no choice but to back away.
It's a clever way to shit on power-level debates by using innate weaknesses within the lore to allow some group to trump others.

It's not clear if a purified Youkai can do the same(likely not, because of the different nature to fairies), but I think it may help them stand up to the Lunarians, mainly against the purifying weapons, since otherwise they may actually be evenly matched after this purity thing is taken out of the account. Although, we also don't know if the purification won't have any repercussion on the youkai, so it's pure speculation for now.

monhan said:

It's not clear if a purified Youkai can do the same(likely not, because of the different nature to fairies), but I think it may help them stand up to the Lunarians, mainly against the purifying weapons, since otherwise they may actually be evenly matched after this purity thing is taken out of the account. Although, we also don't know if the purification won't have any repercussion on the youkai, so it's pure speculation for now.

Still, can this potentially becomes a future plot point since Yukari appeared in one of the endings? The third Genso-Lunar War anyone?

Another interesting thing about Junko's ability is that, if Clownpiece is any indication, it seems it might create an empowered version (or "EX-version", to use a fandom term) of basically every character.
Theoretically, this would allow ZUN to take anyone from the existing cast, and make them literally as strong as he wants without even needing to think an excuse to explain how it happened. Well, other than explaining why Junko would do it.
Hell, it might even be ZUN's occasion to finally put the Watatsuki in a game AND make them defeated by someone.

Touhou 16: Wriggle pwns the Watatsuki sisters with her arms tied behind her back.