[deleted]

Whoa there Lebe and Max... She is not Luftwaffe...

Pecking order

Didn't you two get blown up by mines? Don't blame the air force for your stupidity.

cd_young said:

Didn't you two get blown up by mines? Don't blame the air force for your stupidity.

Z1 was attacked from the air first and depending on who you ask she then either drifted into mines due to steering damage or exploded as a result of the bomb hits, either way the ship fairly quickly sank. Z3 the moved in to the area to rescue survivors and definitely hit British mines and sank as a result with the loss of the entire crew. Given that she would not have been in that position if not attempting to rescue crew from the ship crippled and or sunk by German bombers they're basically the root cause of her loss as well.

Also the Luftwaffe was in fact supposed to provide the air wing for Graf since the Navy had never operated the sorts of aircraft that would be needed, then again the Luftwaffe had never operated on a ship and placing aircraft procurement under the Air Force had worked out so well for the FAA... This is just another reason her career likely would have been disastrous and short if she had in fact been completed.

Tk3997 said:

-snip-

In light of all the history that gets dug up whenever a Kancolle fanwork even approaches the real events of WWII, I'm interested to see how a game would turn out that required a player to outright defeat the combined Allied fleets using any of the Axis fleets in isolation with realistic logistics for both sides.

Munmu san never ceased to draw amazing faces

RNGCombo said:

In light of all the history that gets dug up whenever a Kancolle fanwork even approaches the real events of WWII, I'm interested to see how a game would turn out that required a player to outright defeat the combined Allied fleets using any of the Axis fleets in isolation with realistic logistics for both sides.

I'm more interested in a realistic IJN Teitoku game. Spend your time struggling against your rivals in the Allied fleets, as your prepare to fight the true enemy, the officers of the IJA. The player admiral can choose to ally with the carrier mafia, the old guard of battleship lovers, the bureaucrats of Naval General HQ, or follow his own path. Every faction he does not choose will set political traps and assassins after the player. And no matter what, some of the player's subordinates will be insubordinate glory-hounds sure that they know the true will of the Emperor. The goal of the game is to have the best reputation after the war ends.

PraiseVectron said:

I'm more interested in a realistic IJN Teitoku game. Spend your time struggling against your rivals in the Allied fleets, as your prepare to fight the true enemy, the officers of the IJA. The player admiral can choose to ally with the carrier mafia, the old guard of battleship lovers, the bureaucrats of Naval General HQ, or follow his own path. Every faction he does not choose will set political traps and assassins after the player. And no matter what, some of the player's subordinates will be insubordinate glory-hounds sure that they know the true will of the Emperor. The goal of the game is to have the best reputation after the war ends.

I remembered playing a webgame back in 2001 that was basically "WWII - the Pacific Front" and played in Real Time. For the life of me, I can't remember what it was called, but it was played against real people and the interface was pretty much like a map of the Pacific with data being sent to you via e-mail. It was really fun, too.

Edit: I don't think this was it, but Fighting Flattops seems close enough.

PraiseVectron said:

I'm more interested in a realistic IJN Teitoku game. Spend your time struggling against your rivals in the Allied fleets, as your prepare to fight the true enemy, the officers of the IJA. The player admiral can choose to ally with the carrier mafia, the old guard of battleship lovers, the bureaucrats of Naval General HQ, or follow his own path. Every faction he does not choose will set political traps and assassins after the player. And no matter what, some of the player's subordinates will be insubordinate glory-hounds sure that they know the true will of the Emperor. The goal of the game is to have the best reputation after the war ends.

The goal of the game is to not be executed as a war criminal after the war ends.

(And, of course, to not be executed as a traitor before you even make it all the way there.)

RNGCombo said:

In light of all the history that gets dug up whenever a Kancolle fanwork even approaches the real events of WWII, I'm interested to see how a game would turn out that required a player to outright defeat the combined Allied fleets using any of the Axis fleets in isolation with realistic logistics for both sides.

Impossible, the US Navy alone is larger then the entire combined Axis fleet in most areas by a considerable margin, once you add the Royal Navy it's approaching twice the size and since they'd largely control sea lanes with the Axis forced into defensive actions they could in fact coordinate their forces against one power while the Axis would be totally cut off.

As a lark on another forum I complied a list of possible USN ship girls using the criteria the game seemed to use (at that moment) and then compared it to the Axis fleet just to give an idea of how fucking broken the USN was in WWII. After I made the list Graf was added which then opened the door IMO for ships started but not finished during the war.

In other words if they really wanted to add Allied ships they either had nerf it soo much to the point it sucks or create a spin-off of KanColle featuring Allied ships so people can stop bitching about "ship X is way too OP,nerf it!" in PvPs.Or alternatively implement a really,really powerful enemies to create an excuse to have an Allied ship.

Or just not have them at all because it'll attract all the burgerclaps who'd then bring in their "political correct" buddies to write slandering articles about the game.

Adolf95 said:

In other words if they really wanted to add Allied ships they either had nerf it soo much to the point it sucks or create a spin-off of KanColle featuring Allied ships so people can stop bitching about "ship X is way too OP,nerf it!" in PvPs.Or alternatively implement a really,really powerful enemies to create an excuse to have an Allied ship.

Uh no, Allied ships weren't THAT much better than their Axis counterparts, with some exceptions(i.e Midway class CVs). What will be really broken is their equipment, as both the finished and prototype weapons that the Allies cooked up in WW2 would overshadow the Axis armory. Even if the Axis ships can equip them, I don't think a game that celebrates the IJN is going to want to be seen with Allied stuff being completely dominate.

Ahegao said:

Or just not have them at all because it'll attract all the burgerclaps who'd then bring in their "political correct" buddies to write slandering articles about the game.

Right, because that Chinese copycat is definitely getting hated on by the SJWs for having Allied ships. KanColle isn't mainstream, not even in Japan, so no one will care.

Laferno01 said:

Uh no, Allied ships weren't THAT much better than their Axis counterparts, with some exceptions(i.e Midway class CVs). What will be really broken is their equipment, as both the finished and prototype weapons that the Allies cooked up in WW2 would overshadow the Axis armory. Even if the Axis ships can equip them, I don't think a game that celebrates the IJN is going to want to be seen with Allied stuff being completely dominate.

That's what I said in my first point,nerf them.

To be fair, the power of the ships doesn't necessarily tie into how they performed in real life (i.e. Kaga) so the developers can tweak those aspects as they see fit.

I do remember reading somewhere that said if they add the Allied ships, they'd do them last so that won't become a problem until the far future. I might be wrong about that though, I don't remember the source.

Shinhwalee said:

Whoa there Lebe and Max... She is not Luftwaffe...

Can't be blame them, because thanks to Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine was cut a lot of budget, so in their eyes, any aircraft belong to Luftwaffe.

Well... to be fair, the Me-109's, Ju-88's and Fw-190's her air wing has were afaik experimental you two.

Adolf95 said:

That's what I said in my first point,nerf them.

Those revisionist right wings made the Great US Navy become so weak! Unacceptable!

Followed by series of esseys explaining how the US Navy ships should have performed many times better than the Japanese ships, citing various historical sources.

But game balancing...
Right wing propaganda!

Actually worrying about that scenario if US Navy ships are going to be implemented.

One can look at Bismarck to see the kind of treatment an Allied shipgirl will get in-game, gameplay-wise. She is barely better than a Kongou until she reach her Drei remodel where she find her niche and can become valuable as a FBB in escort fleet. Devs will likely find a way to balance the Allied kanmusu so 1) players who joined late will not be penalized for failing to participate in the event to get her. 2) the core kanmusu don't become obsolete.

Seika said:

Those revisionist right wings made the Great US Navy become so weak! Unacceptable!

Followed by series of esseys explaining how the US Navy ships should have performed many times better than the Japanese ships, citing various historical sources.

But game balancing...
Right wing propaganda!

Actually worrying about that scenario if US Navy ships are going to be implemented.

Yeah I also can see that as well.
Guess we all has to wait and see what will they do.

Shebadotfr said:

One can look at Bismarck to see the kind of treatment an Allied shipgirl will get in-game, gameplay-wise. She is barely better than a Kongou until she reach her Drei remodel where she find her niche and can become valuable as a FBB in escort fleet. Devs will likely find a way to balance the Allied kanmusu so 1) players who joined late will not be penalized for failing to participate in the event to get her. 2) the core kanmusu don't become obsolete.

Or an event that is so hard that people are gonna whine so hard.

Laferno01 said:
Right, because that Chinese copycat is definitely getting hated on by the SJWs for having Allied ships. KanColle isn't mainstream, not even in Japan, so no one will care.

It's the new Touhou. It's to the point that secondaries cosplay Kongou and Shimakaze without having a clue it's originally a browser game. The possibility SJW's will raise a bigger stink when Allies come is pretty real. Much more if they make them nerfed because "muh historical accuracy" and "muh superior USN." Let's not forget whiny Koreans and Chinese shouting even louder.

T34/38 said:

Or an event that is so hard that people are gonna whine so hard.

Summer 2015 E7-style of map, with trollsubs nodes, PT-nodes, yasen nodes, day battle nodes with tsu class and black wo shooters, random routing and boss node with triple Dyson, PT imps and armor debuff that reset every 24 hours. Oh, did I mention random routing? I did and will repeat it again. Catch? Allied Kanmusu is drop-only, at Hard, in a drop pool full of Naka, Tama, Atago and Junyou.

T34/38 said:

Or an event that is so hard that people are gonna whine so hard.

And still play on. We are quite the masochistic lot, no?

Adolf95 said:

That's what I said in my first point,nerf them.

After seeing the stats for the 16" Triple Gun Mount Mk.7,I taking my words back.It's the third most powerful in terms of Firepower,and the most accurate among all battleship-level guns

I just love how people accuse other from "revisionists" citing texts from more revisionists. Maybe you don't know about it because you are made to believe everything your own nation teaches you, but ALL texts are revised according to what they want you to believe and specially what they want you to forget. Just like all those Japanese Internment Camps.

Oh! and one more thing, the fact a side wins the war doesn't make it the "good" side. It's not a coincidence all "good" sides through history turn "bad" once their win rate plumps. As much as your grandfather had all those medals, remember they are covered with blood from civilians without parents, spouse and even their own lives too. That's how war is.

rom_collector said:

I just love how people accuse other from "revisionists" citing texts from more revisionists. Maybe you don't know about it because you are made to believe everything your own nation teaches you, but ALL texts are revised according to what they want you to believe and specially what they want you to forget. Just like all those Japanese Internment Camps.

Oh! and one more thing, the fact a side wins the war doesn't make it the "good" side. It's not a coincidence all "good" sides through history turn "bad" once their win rate plumps. As much as your grandfather had all those medals, remember they are covered with blood from civilians without parents, spouse and even their own lives too. That's how war is.

At least the Americans didn't rape my grandmother's friends or behead the male members of her family to test the sharpness of their swords. And they were all civilians. Those weren't isolated incidents either, I had to interview her and a bunch of senior citizens for a school history project who described living their lives in hell in the jungle to hide from the IJA while subsiding on tapioca and other roots.

Centuries of Western imperialism pale before three years of IJA occupation.

See, the thing is, in practice both the Allied and the Axis troops did a lot of bad things (rape, pillaging and trophy hunting included), but the key difference is that 'evil' is far more systemic among the SS and the IJA, and were encouraged by the higher-ups.

Sure, Executive Order 9066 was a severe breach of civil rights, and I've no doubt some people may have died or lost their way of light because of it, but they weren't systematically butchered unlike the Chinese (sans Taiwanese), Koreans, Pacific Islanders, and Jews.

NNescio said:

At least the Americans didn't rape my grandmother's friends or behead the male members of her family to test the sharpness of their swords. And they were all civilians. Those weren't isolated incidents either, I had to interview her and a bunch of senior citizens for a school history project who described living their lives in hell in the jungle to hide from the IJA while subsiding on tapioca and other roots.

Centuries of Western imperialism pale before three years of IJA occupation.

See, the thing is, in practice both the Allied and the Axis troops did a lot of bad things (rape, pillaging and trophy hunting included), but the key difference is that 'evil' is far more systemic among the SS and the IJA, and were encouraged by the higher-ups.

Sure, Executive Order 9066 was a severe breach of civil rights, and I've no doubt some people may have died or lost their way of light because of it, but they weren't systematically butchered unlike the Chinese (sans Taiwanese), Koreans, Pacific Islanders, and Jews.

It's been 70+ years. Get over it. Also IJA != IJN.

Raigeki said:

It's been 70+ years. Get over it. Also IJA != IJN.

Oh, I know that. Note that I was precise in blaming certain parts of the army instead of the Wehrmacht and the entire Imperial Japanese military.

I was making a graphic point to illustrate that isolated cases of atrocities on one side does not excuse or make equal the systemic, institutionalized atrocities committed by another side, especially when committed on a civilians of a third party 'colony nation' who were never belligerents on either side of the war.

Mass internment != Genocide

NNescio said:

Oh, I know that. Note that I was precise in blaming certain parts of the army instead of the Wehrmacht and the entire Imperial Japanese military.

I was making a graphic point to illustrate that isolated cases of atrocities on one side does not excuse or make equal the systemic, institutionalized atrocities committed by another side, especially when committed on a civilians of a third party 'colony nation' who were never belligerents on either side of the war.

So your graphic point includes nuking two cities full of civilians and make them suffer descendants included for decades, another order from the higher ups? Your "isolated" cases are only ignoring all the "bad" your "good" side does. I'm not trying to do a flame war here, all I'm saying is you should think twice the next time you make a big fuzz over something that happened before you were even born and especially over a thematic card game with cute characters that has nothing to do with whatever your ancestors did.

rom_collector said:

Oh! and one more thing, the fact a side wins the war doesn't make it the "good" side. It's not a coincidence all "good" sides through history turn "bad" once their win rate plumps. As much as your grandfather had all those medals, remember they are covered with blood from civilians without parents, spouse and even their own lives too. That's how war is.

The Axis started it.
They then lost.

Everyone blames the aggressor. Everyone shits all over the aggressor that loses.
Capiche?

"We will not apologize" lots like you make me really really glad that I'm currently working on an alternate history fic series that eventually has WWII conclude with an invasion of the Japanese Home Islands on a matter of "We will not accept any peace that doesn't put every male member of the Imperial House on war crime trials at the very least" (see Prince Asaka, he was at Nanjing and refused to reign in the troops. The general in charge there on the other hand was hanged after the war as a scapegoat) by one of the major allied factions, who did the invasion solo... and managed to jump-start the Civil Rights Movement in the US because even the annihilationists balked at the fact that Japan lost... 10 million LESS than they killed in the rest of Asia.

Modddds

The argument ended 29 days ago, please don't try and revive it. If anyone else posts trying to revive it they'll receive a 24 hour ban.

NWF_Renim said:

The argument ended 29 days ago, please don't try and revive it. If anyone else posts trying to revive it they'll receive a 24 hour ban.

But why?

There is no point in reviving a 29 day old argument unless your goal is to cause further arguments. The general tone of the comments also started going in a direction that would more likely cause flaming than proper discussion. The comment attempting to revive it was also written in a manner to rile up anger. If you want to get into a fight, then you can find another location to do it.

NWF_Renim said:

There is no point in reviving a 29 day old argument unless your goal is to cause further arguments. The general tone of the comments also started going in a direction that would more likely cause flaming than proper discussion. The comment attempting to revive it was also written in a manner to rile up anger. If you want to get into a fight, then you can find another location to do it.

Got it. Hats off to ya for maintaining the peace around here.

NWF_Renim said:

There is no point in reviving a 29 day old argument unless your goal is to cause further arguments. The general tone of the comments also started going in a direction that would more likely cause flaming than proper discussion. The comment attempting to revive it was also written in a manner to rile up anger. If you want to get into a fight, then you can find another location to do it.

Aww damn.. No more of the trivia they will give then..

Tk3997 said:
[...]
Also the Luftwaffe was in fact supposed to provide the air wing for Graf since the Navy had never operated the sorts of aircraft that would be needed, then again the Luftwaffe had never operated on a ship and placing aircraft procurement under the Air Force had worked out so well for the FAA... This is just another reason her career likely would have been disastrous and short if she had in fact been completed.

FAA? Is that the Argentine Air Force? Their wikipedia page doesn't mention the luftwaffe until the post war section.

Laferno01 said:
[...] Even if the Axis ships can equip them, I don't think a game that celebrates the IJN is going to want to be seen with Allied stuff being completely dominate.

Celebrates? I was under the impression that they were kind of parodying IJN.

Kapten-N said:
FAA? Is that the Argentine Air Force?

No, it's likely Fleet Air Arm

NNescio said:

The goal of the game is to not be executed as a war criminal after the war ends.

(And, of course, to not be executed as a traitor before you even make it all the way there.)

Long Live The Admiral!
(Long Live the Queen, with TTK's)

Fun to read old comments after allied ships were added and sjws targeted the game, lol.