チハたん∩(・ω・)∩ばんじゃーい

Well the Japanese had good tanks for its time but the problem is that they keep it in service for way too long.

They had good tanks against the ROC, yes they had. But good and effective against Soviet, German and American? How? They cut on expenses for Army to put on Navy. To a floating hotel to boot.

He explicitly said "for its time". Even then, I wouldn't call it "good" so much as "okay". I'd say it stood a decent chance against its contemporaries.

As long as you look at it as a infantry tank its a great design for its day, too bad that if you use it as a medium tank its design suffers.

I mean, many of the other nation's tanks at the time weren't exactly impressive either.

IJA were trying to keep up to speed with tanks, but considering how strapped in resources the Japanese were, for the army, their tanks had to give way to other systems. They were fine earlier in the 1930s but as time moved on, they were horribly obsolete.

Type 97 came into service in 1936 and was passable for it's time. Some WWII tanks that people will immediately try to compare this tank to: M4 Sherman, Russian T-34 were designs of the 1940s. The workhorse of the German Panzerwaffe, the long-gunned PzKpfw IVF & H models, were early to mid 1940 designs. Even the American M3 Lee/Grant was a 1940s design.

IJA tank forces were on the bottom of the totem pole for resources and continued development. I'd imagine that as the war expanded in Mainland China and the Pacific Islands, the army wasn't exactly in a position to keep their tanks up to date. It's so bad for them that even their infantry weapons fell behind.

firefly99 said:

IJA were trying to keep up to speed with tanks, but considering how strapped in resources the Japanese were, for the army, their tanks had to give way to other systems. They were fine earlier in the 1930s but as time moved on, they were horribly obsolete.

The Japanese army armor problem cannot simply be dismissed as a resource issue. Yes, they never could have hoped to field to the number of divisions of Germany, Russia, America, or even Britain but they could have done better then they did with effective doctrine, leadership, and technical research.

This problem also notably shows in their gross inadequacy of Anti-tank systems, even if you want to argue that resource limitations prevented them from doing better in tanks (I disagree) the complete neglect of AT systems then becomes even more inexcusable. However it fits together nicely for a force that simply undervalued the tank in general and failed to fully grasp it's implications.

Frankly Japan doesn't have much excuse as smaller nations like the Checz and Swedes produced better designs in this period. Japanese tanks before and during the war never got beyond even 'adequate' and that only for a brief period in the early 30s, they were already behind the curve by the back half of the 30s.

Type 97 came into service in 1936 and was passable for it's time.

The Type 97 absolutely was not in service in 1936, it began development in that period, but the first production models didn't arrive until the back half of 1938.

Some WWII tanks that people will immediately try to compare this tank to: M4 Sherman, Russian T-34 were designs of the 1940s. The workhorse of the German Panzerwaffe, the long-gunned PzKpfw IVF & H models, were early to mid 1940 designs. Even the American M3 Lee/Grant was a 1940s design.

The Panzer III and IV were 30s era designs, production of both had actually commenced before the Type 97 entered mass production. The fact they were better machines that had growth potential that kept them relevant into the 40s doesn't change that, it merely highlights the Japanese machine's inferiority.

The T-34 design process began about a year later in 1937 with the A-20, but it was ironically clashes with the Japanese in the late 30s this spurred the decisions to move to a heavier design that directly led into the T-34 which was essentially in it's production form by 1940.

Both these examples show that the type 97 could have competed into at least the mid war with upgrades... if it was better designed and developed to start with. It wasn't though it was too small, with little growth potential and many obsolescent features. This was then compounded by a complete lack of attempt to develop a true next generation replacement even when it was obvious that the design was basically obsolescent almost from introduction in 1938-39. This would be like if the US thought the M2A4 light tank was fine and basically didn't bother trying to develop anything else until like 1943.

The tank was completely underestimated in importance and the doctrine for it's use remained primitive and restrictive. The Japanese Army simply lacked officers with the vision to push and fight for armored forces, or emphasize their importance.

Yes Japan was never going to be able to do like the US Army most of whose Infantry Divisions by late in the war had almost as much attached armor as German Panzer Divisions (usually 1 Tank and 1 Tank Destroyer Battalion for roughly 100 AFVs), but they could have done better then the inadequate designs dug in like pill boxes or used in land based kamikaze attacks that we got.

IJA tank forces were on the bottom of the totem pole for resources and continued development.

The thing is this wasn't some inevitability, they were low on the totem pole because the army didn't fight for or allocate technical resources to their development. They could have done better even with what they had, and they could have diverted resources from other stupid projects to help, but the people in charge of the army largely did not understand tanks and a fair number were thoroughly drunk off the Bushido flavored Kool-aid that was all the rage at the time and quite confident that fanatical infantry was adequate to defeat any foe.

You can see this easily in the penny ante, spastic, ineffective way they employed the tanks they DID have even against a decidedly lesser foe that was the Chinese army.

I'd imagine that as the war expanded in Mainland China and the Pacific Islands, the army wasn't exactly in a position to keep their tanks up to date. It's so bad for them that even their infantry weapons fell behind.

Well yes because they had done almost nothing between 1940 and 1942 and hence when they suddenly found themselves facing Sherman's that behaved like Tiger tanks against the breathtaking inadequate armored and AT forces pitted against them they didn't even start to come up with answers until around the end of 1943 and it was way to late by then.

Riche is so beautiful every single time.

I would like to have one and scare the hell out of my grandparents who lived during WW2...*snort*