If you're reading through this now and wondering why I replaced "Celestial" with "Deva" and other similar things, the reason is simple.

"Celestial" is an overly literal translation of 天人 that removes all of Tenshi's cultural context, which is brought up several times in the series.
Just to name two off the top of my head, in the Komachi story mode vs. her in SWR, she directly references the "five signs of weakness" a deva displays before their death. Also Youmu's PCB Spell Card "Five Signs of the Dying Deva" uses 天人 in the original name.
Not to mention, in Buddhist lore the deva realm is beautiful and perfect, but spiritually empty. That describes Tenshi's whole character and motives.

And that's my main motivation for this edit spree. That's not all I'll do though, I'm also going to fix the translation here and there.

Not that I mind either way, but isn't this too little too late? People have been referring to Tenshi as a Celestial for a decade at least, they are more likely to wonder why you're referring to her wrong than the other way around.

This honestly isn't your decision to make. Unless you are going to single-handedly revise the translation in every game, print work and wiki article, this just creates unnecessary confusion. These edits should be reverted.

festin said:

This honestly isn't your decision to make. Unless you are going to single-handedly revise the translation in every game, print work and wiki article, this just creates unnecessary confusion. These edits should be reverted.

Just because it's the more common translation doesn't mean it's the right one. I already explained my reasons.

(Also the fact you changed my OTHER edits too shows you're just being spiteful.)

CinderBH said:

Just because it's the more common translation doesn't mean it's the right one. I already explained my reasons.

(Also the fact you changed my OTHER edits too shows you're just being spiteful.)

And it's not because it's the right one that it automatically gives you the right to make 12 years worth of note changes. That isn't your call to make.
We all know what is meant by the word celestial, leave it alone.

CinderBH said:

Just because it's the more common translation doesn't mean it's the right one. I already explained my reasons.

(Also the fact you changed my OTHER edits too shows you're just being spiteful.)

I also reverted the ones that changed "poverty god" to "binbougami" and "plague god" to "yakubougami" because those changes make no sense either. You also changed "god" to "kami" in one place, which is just silly. I left the ones that were just translation fixes.

Please stop, this is vandalism.

festin said:

I also reverted the ones that changed "poverty god" to "binbougami" and "plague god" to "yakubougami" because those changes make no sense either. You also changed "god" to "kami" in one place, which is just silly. I left the ones that were just translation fixes.

Please stop, this is vandalism.

Shintoist kami are NOT the same thing as Western gods, and the Yorigami sisters fall under that purview. And the fact that you would label attempts to make that distinction as "vandalism" profoundly offends me.

CinderBH said:

Shintoist kami are NOT the same thing as Western gods, and the Yorigami sisters fall under that purview. And the fact that you would label attempts to make that distinction as "vandalism" profoundly offends me.

I am aware of it. It is still translated as "god" in every single piece of existing Touhou media, and trying to change that in this pool does not accomplish anything positive.

Feel free to be offended.

festin said:

I am aware of it. It is still translated as "god" in every single piece of existing Touhou media, and trying to change that in this pool does not accomplish anything positive.

Feel free to be offended.

Fighting conventions fostered by the ignorance and apathy of people who would sooner chop their own leg off than learn a new foreign word is nothing but positive in my book. And no, "it makes me feel dumb and I don't like that" doesn't count as a negative.

CinderBH said:

Fighting conventions fostered by the ignorance and apathy of people who would sooner chop their own leg off than learn a new foreign word is nothing but positive in my book. And no, "it makes me feel dumb and I don't like that" doesn't count as a negative.

Well then, you can head to Encyclopedia Britannica, Wikipedia and other such places and try to make them change their ways, since last time I checked they were all calling Amaterasu a "sun goddess".

Until you manage that, please don't introduce those changes here.

festin said:

Well then, you can head to Encyclopedia Britannica, Wikipedia and other such places and try to make them change their ways, since last time I checked they were all calling Amaterasu a "sun goddess".

Until you manage that, please don't introduce those changes here.

Wikipedia classifies Amaterasu as a "Shinto kami", you ad-populum twit.

CinderBH said:

Wikipedia classifies Amaterasu as a "Shinto kami", you ad-populum twit.

Wikipedia said:

Amaterasu (天照), Amaterasu-ōmikami (天照大神／天照大御神／天照皇大神), or Ōhirume-no-muchi-no-kami (大日孁貴神) is the Shinto sun goddess. She is also seen as the goddess of the universe.

Goddess of the Sun and universe

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Wikipedia uses the word "god" several times on her wiki page. In fact, the exact phrase "Shinto Kami" is never once used.

Also, if you're gonna start resorting to insults, don't expect anyone to actually support and/or agree with you

blindVigil said:

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Wikipedia uses the word "god" several times on her wiki page. In fact, the exact phrase "Shinto Kami" is never once used.

Also, if you're gonna start resorting to insults, don't expect anyone to actually support and/or agree with you

Okay, no insults. Try scrolling down to the categories, genius.

CinderBH said:

Okay, no insults. Try scrolling down to the categories, genius.

Being a smartass doesn't help either.

I have no idea what you mean by categories, are we even looking at the same wikipedia page?

The fact remains that 99% of western media translates "kami" as "god", you're wasting your time here trying to convince people on an image hosting site not to do so as well. Whether or not it's correct to do so is irrelevant unless you convince literally everybody to stop doing so.

blindVigil said:

Being a smartass doesn't help either.

I have no idea what you mean by categories, are we even looking at the same wikipedia page?

The fact remains that 99% of western media translates "kami" as "god", you're wasting your time here trying to convince people on an image hosting site not to do so as well. Whether or not it's correct to do so is irrelevant unless you convince literally everybody to stop doing so.

I'm a translator, it's part of what I set out to do to call out common misconceptions and you know, generally give a hoot about things. I don't just turn Japanese words into English, there's a lof of studying a given work's cultural background and the ideas that went into it.

Me and other people discussed the above choices in the scope of translating the Touhou games in Italian, even with Clarste and other people involved in the wiki. What we realized was translation choices like "Celestial" and "god of poverty" were fundamentally flawed but they stuck to them anyway, for the sake of people like you who would vehemently defend misconceptions rather than learn something new. So in the end, we're going to make our own translation choices and make general improvements/fixes where the English translation fell short.
And then we'll see whether my efforts matter or not.

CinderBH said:

I'm a translator, it's part of what I set out to do to call out common misconceptions and you know, generally give a hoot about things. I don't just turn Japanese words into English, there's a lof of studying a given work's cultural background and the ideas that went into it.

Me and other people discussed the above choices in the scope of translating the Touhou games in Italian, even with Clarste and other people involved in the wiki. What we realized was translation choices like "Celestial" and "god of poverty" were fundamentally flawed but they stuck to them anyway, for the sake of people like you who would vehemently defend misconceptions rather than learn something new. So in the end, we're going to make our own translation choices and make general improvements/fixes where the English translation fell short.
And then we'll see whether my efforts matter or not.

It isn't like I disagree with you or think you're wrong, the commonly accepted translations are not technically correct, but translating is about making something understandable to someone who doesn't speak the language, and "god", "celestial", and "heaven" get the point across well enough. The Touhou wiki even clarifies a lot of these "misconceptions". My only point was that if you wanna convince a 20 year old fandom, and in fact most of the world, to start doing things differently, this isn't the best place to start.

You can do your own translations however you want, but you shouldn't just go and change someone else's translation without at least trying to discuss it with them first, and acting like everyone else is an uncultured idiot who hates learning about other cultures isn't going to do you any favors. Most long time Touhou fans, including myself, are fully aware of the many intricacies of Touhou's cultural influences, we just use the closest equivalent English terms, like literally everyone else does, because that makes it easier for everybody even if it's not 100% accurate.

This discussion reminds me of this meme. Translations are useless if a potential reader has to keep checking a Japanese to English dictionary.

nonamethanks said:

This discussion reminds me of this meme. Translations are useless if a potential reader has to keep checking a Japanese to English dictionary.

I swear to Tiamat, people keep bringing up that meme as if it's a valid example and not something utterly ridiculous that has nothing to do with the topic.

"Japanese words are all the same, right?" Get fucked.

CinderBH said:

I swear to Tiamat, people keep bringing up that meme as if it's a valid example and not something utterly ridiculous that has nothing to do with the topic.

"Japanese words are all the same, right?" Get fucked.

The meme itself is obviously excessive, but it's still a valid point. Translations are intended for readers who don't speak the language. You don't leave in foreign words unless there is no adequate English equivalent, because the point is to make it easier to understand, which you're not doing if you have to add explanations for all the foreign words you refused to translate despite equivalents existing.

blindVigil said:

The meme itself is obviously excessive, but it's still a valid point. Translations are intended for readers who don't speak the language. You don't leave in foreign words unless there is no adequate English equivalent, because the point is to make it easier to understand, which you're not doing if you have to add explanations for all the foreign words you refused to translate despite equivalents existing.

That's just the thing though, they're not equivalents. They're if anything very superficial equivalents that remove all the native context when used. Context that I can't reliably trust the reader to know.
Anyway, I'll concede on the account of editing someone else's translation. I guess the habits I developed from dealing with far less reasonable people got the better of me. I even got scolded by my own group.
I still think people over at the wiki should sit down and reconsider some of those choices, though.

CinderBH said:

That's just the thing though, they're not equivalents. They're if anything very superficial equivalents that remove all the native context when used. Context that I can't reliably trust the reader to know.
Anyway, I'll concede on the account of editing someone else's translation. I guess the habits I developed from dealing with far less reasonable people got the better of me. I even got scolded by my own group.
I still think people over at the wiki should sit down and reconsider some of those choices, though.

That's what translation is, it's removing the context so as to make it understandable to the average reader, because the average reader doesn't care about the native context. If there's something extra they need to know, you tell them in a note somewhere. Leaving the word "kami" untranslated doesn't give them that context either, they still don't know what that word means without you telling them. So you're either explaining to them why "god" isn't exactly right, or you're explaining to them what "kami" means, if the "native context" is so important to you.

blindVigil said:

That's what translation is, it's removing the context so as to make it understandable to the average reader, because the average reader doesn't care about the native context.

I'm sorry, but that's not translating a work, it's dumbing it down. Works like Touhou are ALL about the native context, and I value people who do want to know about it too much to deny them that opportunity. And I don't think I'm wrong to think so.
As a translator, I'll definitely provide explanations when possible though.

It's fine to use something like 'poverty spirit' or 'misfortune deity' over the word 'binbougami' even if you don't want to use 'god' since it gets the meaning across well enough.

Also, it's fine to use 'god/goddess' for non-western deities since readers aren't necessarily expecting equivalence to western gods in the first place.

The 'celestial/heaven' thing could be different, but it's not inaccurate either, and it works nicely with the Tenshi/Angel pun.

What I mean to say is that most other translators probably don't feel the need to change the translations, here or elsewhere.

@CinderBH Please calm down. This is clearly rather important to you, but insulting others isn't going to do you any good. Furthermore we do not want users attacking and insulting each on the site, so please cease the aggressiveness or else expect to receive a temporary ban.

I'm not going to interfere with discussions on the terminologies used unless the attacks continue, but I would like to make the suggestion that if the Japanese terms are used that in the cases of things like 'binbougami' that the translator should make sure to include a translation note alongside the first usage of the term to define the term for those who may not be familiar with the meaning just as a courtesy for others.

NWF_Renim said:

@CinderBH Please calm down. This is clearly rather important to you, but insulting others isn't going to do you any good. Furthermore we do not want users attacking and insulting each on the site, so please cease the aggressiveness or else expect to receive a temporary ban.

I'm not going to interfere with discussions on the terminologies used unless the attacks continue, but I would like to make the suggestion that if the Japanese terms are used that in the cases of things like 'binbougami' that the translator should make sure to include a translation note alongside the first usage of the term to define the term for those who may not be familiar with the meaning just as a courtesy for others.

No, I'm done with the aggression. I do believe strongly in my position though.
And the "TL note on the first use" idea is good, actually.

We've been calling them Celestials since Perfect Memento in Strict Sense, at least. If we go by the version on en.touhouwiki.net, the English reading for their species was "decided upon" a year before we knew Tenshi was even a thing.

Somebody needs to take a course in actual translation. I'm surprised you chose Deva instead of Sky Kiddo or something