They're doing it again.

cd_young said:

They're doing it again.

Except the evidence for their reasoning was a thing from back on the Gamecube. The English localization tried to sweep it under the rug.

CGrascal said:

Except the evidence for their reasoning was a thing from back on the Gamecube. The English localization tried to sweep it under the rug.

Got it, so hidden trap character.

CGrascal said:

Except the evidence for their reasoning was a thing from back on the Gamecube. The English localization tried to sweep it under the rug.

Except in the OG Paper Mario JP version, Vivian is an otokonoko, which is pretty much a femboy.

CGrascal said:

Except the evidence for their reasoning was a thing from back on the Gamecube. The English localization tried to sweep it under the rug.

"A thing from back on the Gamecube"? Is Vivian trans in the JP version of the remake, too, not just the EN one?

BigHeroCV6 said:

"A thing from back on the Gamecube"? Is Vivian trans in the JP version of the remake, too, not just the EN one?

Yep.

それに　じつは　アタイ。。。
体は　オトコのコだけど
ココロは　カワイイ　オンナのコなの

The truth is...
My body is that of a boy
But my heart is a cute girl's!

TinyCleverCommander said:

Yep.

Cool.

Keyes said:

Got it, so hidden trap character.

You are probably a beldam's fucker ♤

cd_young said:

They're doing it again.

Stay mad

All of the transphobes are being downvoted, and all of the smug trans allies are also being downvoted.
Perfectly balanced, as all things should be.😊

Keyes said:

Got it, so hidden trap character.

No in the real world where everything is not a weird hentai tag she is trans

CrystalLeaf said:

All of the transphobes are being downvoted, and all of the smug allies are also being downvoted.
Perfectly balanced, as all things should be.😊

Yeah glad to see some true equality in this anti-social unfuckable loser website

To the transphobes in the comments: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21U6k9M2TU4

high_status_bastard said:

You are probably a beldam's fucker ♤

Well then, apparently, there are some peps who didn't understand my allegory or whatever, Beldam is the transphobic old sister who constantly bullies her (Vivian)

user_934375 said:

No in the real world where everything is not a weird hentai tag she is trans

>weird hentai tag

男の娘 (Otoko no ko) is a Japanese slang term used to refer to male characters with the appearance of the female gender. The term is a pun on 男の子 (otoko no ko), meaning "boy", replacing 子 with the ko reading of 娘 (commonly musume, girl).

Characters centered around this fetish are called "traps" or "femboy" in English-speaking communities.

Some communities have mistakenly taken to using the term as a word for feminine boys no matter if they convincingly look like girls or not. If you can correctly tell the character is male with complete certainty from the thumbnail alone without looking at the genitalia, it's not this.

While many otoko no ko engage in crossdressing, it is not a requirement. Sufficiently feminine characters can pass as girls even when near-nude or dressed in typically masculine clothing.

Source: otoko_no_ko

(I donut care if Vivian is a trans, otokonoko, femboy, female, newhalf, shemale, crossdresser, or male. All I can say is "smash" and "I would a Vivian". However, please do not misconstrue the definition of my precious otokonoko 😠)

wonklegoosegus said:

>weird hentai tag

男の娘 (Otoko no ko) is a Japanese slang term used to refer to male characters with the appearance of the female gender. The term is a pun on 男の子 (otoko no ko), meaning "boy", replacing 子 with the ko reading of 娘 (commonly musume, girl).

Characters centered around this fetish are called "traps" or "femboy" in English-speaking communities.

Some communities have mistakenly taken to using the term as a word for feminine boys no matter if they convincingly look like girls or not. If you can correctly tell the character is male with complete certainty from the thumbnail alone without looking at the genitalia, it's not this.

While many otoko no ko engage in crossdressing, it is not a requirement. Sufficiently feminine characters can pass as girls even when near-nude or dressed in typically masculine clothing.

Source: otoko_no_ko

(I donut care if Vivian is a trans, otokonoko, femboy, female, newhalf, shemale, crossdresser, or male. All I can say is "smash" and "I would a Vivian". However, please do not misconstrue the definition of my precious otokonoko 😠)

Also
>"fans" claims Vivian to be trans
>lives in a world of magic, has magical powers
>not even a human (no secondary sex characteristics)
>entire species is pretty androgynous (can we say for certain Vivian's sisters are female?)
>doesn't have a side quest commit to a gender conforming spell into a female
>cooking mechanic doesn't have a recipe for a gender bending concoction
> THIS IS A KID'S GAME HOLY FUCK

I've only played the Gamecube version from 20 years ago.

They were known as the Shadow Sirens. Sirens are female.

They're presented as a family, so they're all sisters.

They're wearing witch hats, so you know, witches are commonly portrayed as female.

They have girl names.

Vivian is the odd one out as the "pretty" one, something to be envious of. Especially when presented as the opposite of an old hag character.

The arch villain of the game is the "Shadow Queen" who wants to possess Princess Peach, the paragon of feminine virtue within the Mario franchise.

If Vivian is a boy who thinks he's a girl in the Japanese version, it completely throws off the sensible dynamic we've got going in the English version for no reason other than it's *funny* I guess. Or a higher up at Nintendo was afraid the players might like the sad shadow lady more than Princess Peach and thought to sabotage things to protect their mascot.

Nintendo sabotaging the Paper Mario series in some way? Impossible, I know...

The mental gymnastics some people go through to explain how a character who by definition is trans isn't actually trans.
Being trans isn't some weird cultural thing, as much as people may claim that just because the Japanese don't have an equivalent word it means any trans character from a Japanese work is a localization change, it doesn't change the fact that they are actually trans.
Take Vivian for example, she is male by whatever definition of gender the shadows have, but she views herself as a woman, therefore she is trans, it's that simple.
The whole otoko no ko angle falls on its ass if the character in question doesn't consider themselves to be male.

Incineration said:

The mental gymnastics some people go through to explain how a character who by definition is trans isn't actually trans.
Being trans isn't some weird cultural thing, as much as people may claim that just because the Japanese don't have an equivalent word it means any trans character from a Japanese work is a localization change, it doesn't change the fact that they are actually trans.
Take Vivian for example, she is male by whatever definition of gender the shadows have, but she views herself as a woman, therefore she is trans, it's that simple.
The whole otoko no ko angle falls on its ass if the character in question doesn't consider themselves to be male.

Oh, so by your logic, you want to retcon characters like Ruka Urushibara, Felix Argyle, Astolfo, Hideri Kanzaki, Hacka Doll 3, and Hime Arikawa into trans girls, because they are clearly (sarcasm) not otokonoko? You people did it to Bridgette, so what's stopping you from ruining the appeal for others?

wonklegoosegus said:

Oh, so by your logic, you want to retcon characters like Ruka Urushibara, Felix Argyle, Astolfo, Hideri Kanzaki, Hacka Doll 3, and Hime Arikawa into trans girls, because they are clearly (sarcasm) not otokonoko? You people did it to Bridgette, so what's stopping you from ruining the appeal for others?

OG Ruka IS trans, as is Bridget, this wasn't reconned you bloody idiot.
And Felix, Astolfo and Hacka Doll 3 are cis guys.
No idea who the last two are so no comment on those

Incineration said:

OG Ruka IS trans, as is Bridget, this wasn't reconned you bloody idiot.
And Felix, Astolfo and Hacka Doll 3 are cis guys.
No idea who the last two are so no comment on those

I don't remember Ruka being trans. Certainly not in any of the Steins;Gate media I've engaged with.

blindVigil said:

I don't remember Ruka being trans. Certainly not in any of the Steins;Gate media I've engaged with.

Her request for changing the past was so she could be born a girl. Meaning Ruka with a dick is a trans woman, so that's part of the first and all of Zero. Ruka without a dick is a cis woman, which is the remainder of the the first.
Also it's more blatant in My Darling's Embrace, but that one was a fan disc iirc, and her route was the worst, so who cares about that one.

blindVigil said:

I don't remember Ruka being trans. Certainly not in any of the Steins;Gate media I've engaged with.

Going over the fan wiki, somewhat as a refresher since it's been a long while since I saw the anime, they do have a wish to be female... but it's specifically tied to their romantic feelings for the male lead.

Incineration said:

OG Ruka IS trans, as is Bridget, this wasn't reconned you bloody idiot.
And Felix, Astolfo and Hacka Doll 3 are cis guys.
No idea who the last two are so no comment on those

Ruka is an otokonoko in the main timeline, but a cis female in certain Alpha world lines. Stop erasing Japanese culture, you bigot.

I'll concede that Bridget is trans, only because her parents believe that twins = evil omens, and evil omens are real things in Guilty Gear; so she is trans out of survival. (Also boggles my mind Bridgette doesn't commit to gender conforming procedures despite all the magic and science in that universe. Just hijack a Valentine body, and become a cis woman already).

By the way, Hideri Kanzaki is a simple otokonoko who likes to do cute and girly things. Hime Arekawa on the other hand is a twink of all things. However, he is forced to crossdress in order to pay off a debt to the Yakuza, and so he is coerced to do so by the student council president of his school because she saw his otokonoko potential.

wonklegoosegus said:

I'll concede that Bridget is trans, only because her parents believe that twins = evil omens, and evil omens are real things in Guilty Gear; so she is trans out of survival.

Man, how does someone manage to be wrong about every single detail?

Bridget is not trans out of survival. Her parents do not believe in omens (or at least not strongly enough to commit their children to death). Bridget was not trans prior to Strive. She presented as a girl growing up because the village she lived in would have sacrificed her or her brother out of fear of a curse. She did not identify as a girl, she fully identified as male until Strive. She is trans entirely by choice, and only after proving to her village that the curse wasn't real.

GreyOmega said:

Going over the fan wiki, somewhat as a refresher since it's been a long while since I saw the anime, they do have a wish to be female... but it's specifically tied to their romantic feelings for the male lead.

Yeah, that's what I remembered. He doesn't identify as a woman, he just has feelings for another man that he can't express, so he wishes he was born a woman.

Incineration said:

Her request for changing the past was so she could be born a girl. Meaning Ruka with a dick is a trans woman, so that's part of the first and all of Zero. Ruka without a dick is a cis woman, which is the remainder of the the first.
Also it's more blatant in My Darling's Embrace, but that one was a fan disc iirc, and her route was the worst, so who cares about that one.

the amount of loop jumping on this is outstanding.

blindVigil said:

Man, how does someone manage to be wrong about every single detail?

Bridget is not trans out of survival. Her parents do not believe in omens (or at least not strongly enough to commit their children to death). Bridget was not trans prior to Strive. She presented as a girl growing up because the village she lived in would have sacrificed her or her brother out of fear of a curse. She did not identify as a girl, she fully identified as male until Strive. She is trans entirely by choice, and only after proving to her village that the curse wasn't real.

Proof of Bridgette's transition? Any news of a dlc where she gets a cis female body? After all, there's a character in Blazblue called Mai Natsume who stumbled on a grimoire that transitioned them from cis male to cis female. I'm sure Guilty Gear can pull it off with a future sequel.

wonklegoosegus said:

Proof of Bridgette's transition? Any news of a dlc where she gets a cis female body? After all, there's a character in Blazblue called Mai Natsume who stumbled on a grimoire that transitioned them from cis male to cis female. I'm sure Guilty Gear can pull it off with a future sequel.

https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/expert-q-and-a

You're confusing transgender people with transsexual people. "Transsexual," when used in a medical context, refers to people who had a physical sex change. "Transgender" refers to the person's gender identity not matching their physical sex, just as "cisgender" refers to people whose gender and sex match. There is no such thing as a "cis male body" or "cis female body." This confusion might explain why you seemed to think Vivian being trans would be inappropriate for a kid's game (which is kind of silly regardless since magical genderbending exists in children's media).

Bridget could certainly get a female body in a sequel, but not getting one doesn't mean she's not trans. Also, I don't know if she has gender dysphoria or not, but it is a myth that having gender dysphoria is a requirement for being trans.

blindVigil said:

She is trans entirely by choice, and only after proving to her village that the curse wasn't real.

Is that how it was presented? As "Okay I think I'll be a girl now" instead of the more realistic "Hey, I think I might actually be a girl"? Not saying you're wrong; representation in media isn't always accurate after all.

Blank_User said:

Is that how it was presented? As "Okay I think I'll be a girl now" instead of the more realistic "Hey, I think I might actually be a girl"? Not saying you're wrong; representation in media isn't always accurate after all.

Well I meant she wasn't forced into it by an outside force. Poor choice of words on my part. Her choice was openly identifying as a girl, rather than continuing to identify as male out of fear of what that choice means for herself and everything she did for her village.

Blank_User said:

https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/expert-q-and-a

You're confusing transgender people with transsexual people. "Transsexual," when used in a medical context, refers to people who had a physical sex change. "Transgender" refers to the person's gender identity not matching their physical sex, just as "cisgender" refers to people whose gender and sex match. There is no such thing as a "cis male body" or "cis female body." This confusion might explain why you seemed to think Vivian being trans would be inappropriate for a kid's game (which is kind of silly regardless since magical genderbending exists in children's media).

Bridget could certainly get a female body in a sequel, but not getting one doesn't mean she's not trans. Also, I don't know if she has gender dysphoria or not, but it is a myth that having gender dysphoria is a requirement for being trans.

Okay then, why can't Bridgette be an otokonoko with she/her pronouns. I know Japanese does not have pronouns, and that there is a certain nuance to speaking patterns that are indicative of the character beyond their gender (eg speaking like a noble, overly polite, etc). Why does she have to be a transgender in western eyes, when she was made in Japan, and follows their otaku line of thought that she is an otokonoko? Why are you culturally appropriating her?

I don't mind if Vivian is trans or not in a kid's game. I mean, I agree with you that kids are exposed to genderbending shenanigans often. I also think it would be cool if Mario went on a side quest fulfilled Vivian's wish in of itself and showed her sisters whose boss. Wouldn't that be a good moral that for trans audiences that the hero of the story showed care, and actually went on a quest to affirm a representative character's story? I am just disappointed we are having this kind of argument in the context of a kid's game. Like, imagine doing this IRL in front of kids who just want to play Paper Mario, just cuz their parents are having nostalgia and want to share the joy.

blindVigil said:

Well I meant she wasn't forced into it by an outside force. Poor choice of words on my part. Her choice was openly identifying as a girl, rather than continuing to identify as male out of fear of what that choice means for herself and everything she did for her village.

Except Bridget's entire story was proving the village's superstition was wrong. Bridget was forced to identify as a girl because of a believed curse that twin boys or twin girls are a bad omen, so instead of killing one, his parently lied and said it was mixed twins.

wonklegoosegus said:

Okay then, why can't Bridgette be an otokonoko with she/her pronouns. I know Japanese does not have pronouns, and that there is a certain nuance to speaking patterns that are indicative of the character beyond their gender (eg speaking like a noble, overly polite, etc). Why does she have to be a transgender in western eyes, when she was made in Japan, and follows their otaku line of thought that she is an otokonoko? Why are you culturally appropriating her?

I don't mind if Vivian is trans or not in a kid's game. I mean, I agree with you that kids are exposed to genderbending shenanigans often. I also think it would be cool if Mario went on a side quest fulfilled Vivian's wish in of itself and showed her sisters whose boss. Wouldn't that be a good moral that for trans audiences that the hero of the story showed care, and actually went on a quest to affirm a representative character's story? I am just disappointed we are having this kind of argument in the context of a kid's game. Like, imagine doing this IRL in front of kids who just want to play Paper Mario, just cuz their parents are having nostalgia and want to share the joy.

You know there are transgender people in Japan, right?

verifiably said:

You know there are transgender people in Japan, right?

Not really.
There are gay people in Japan.
There are crossdressers in Japan
there are effeminate men in japan.
There are *not* trans people in japan.
"Trans" are seen as people suffering from a mental disorder, as everyone in the world saw, until it was randomly changed in 2015.

cd_young said:

Not really.
There are gay people in Japan.
There are crossdressers in Japan
there are effeminate men in japan.
There are *not* trans people in japan.
"Trans" are seen as people suffering from a mental disorder, as everyone in the world saw, until it was randomly changed in 2015.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-gender

How do you feel about this term, which originated in Japan, and which is used primarily by Japanese trans people to refer to themselves?

cd_young said:

Lots of bullshit

Just because they have to deal with more shit than in most civilized countries doesn't mean they don't exist.

verifiably said:

You know there are transgender people in Japan, right?

Yeah, they are referred to newhalfs over there. But did you know Otokonoko are real people too? Although its origins come from anime, as a result of the progressive culture in Akihabara, it became normalized there. I'll say it again, it's not just a fetishized hentai tag some people make it be. It is an actual concept of identity over there.

Having said that, for the love of Japanese culture, please let them develop their LGBTQ+ their own way. Or what, are you seriously going to waltz into a soapland in Japan and harass a sex worker there "You're not an otokonoko! You are trans!!!" even though they work hand-in-hand with actual trans women?