Context: Artist skiddioop made an aged-up NSFW drawing of Kris in a bikini (asset #22018971 and tweet). jjeanlll responds to one of her tweets saying "Pedos always have the corniest respond to being called out":
I was arguing with someone on reddit about the usage of "pedophilia" in reference to loli/shota material. I argued it's not accurate because if someone is being accused of pedophilia, my mind would jump to real CSAM. But people are misusing it for loli/shota and devalues the meaning of the word. The person I was arguing with disagreed saying it's accurate and I just didn't want to admit it, then kept calling me a pedophile throughout the whole conversation. This drama reminded me of this because I see "literal CP" and wonder if they meant real CSAM or just loli shit.
I prefer not to, but sometimes you just have to. I walk in, I do my business as swiftly as possible, and I leave. I keep small talk to a bare minimum, I don't engage with any heated arguments, and when people start throwing shit I'm OUT.
I was arguing with someone on reddit about the usage of "pedophilia" in reference to loli/shota material. I argued it's not accurate because if someone is being accused of pedophilia, my mind would jump to real CSAM. But people are misusing it for loli/shota and devalues the meaning of the word. The person I was arguing with disagreed saying it's accurate and I just didn't want to admit it, then kept calling me a pedophile throughout the whole conversation. This drama reminded me of this because I see "literal CP" and wonder if they meant real CSAM or just loli shit.
What a coincidence. I just got out from browsing a loli/pedo debate rabbit hole on Reddit when I saw this.
While I understand there are valid reasons lolicons and shotacons don't want to be called pedophiles, I believe trying to disassociate the terms is doomed to fail every time. They're still sexually attracted to children, even if they're fictional, so "pedophile" is technically accurate. Of course the other side will see that as denial. But openly identifying as a pedophile will just make people think they commit CSA or consume CSAM since the term still has strong criminal connotations (not helped by terms such as "convicted pedophile" being thrown around), so I understand why they don't want to be called that. Even those that understand the difference between loli/shota material and actual CSA will still see lolicons and shotacons as creeps that shouldn't be around children. Both sides are playing a semantics game, one that the lolicons and shotacons can't win.
In short, I disagree with your argument about the term being inaccurate but agree with the reason you're against the association.
After reading some of the arguments for and against the morality of loli/shota content, I'm 100% convinced there can never be any real reconciliation between the groups. The best we can hope for is coexistence and a mutual agreement to not engage with each other (though a permanent cease-fire between Israel and Gaza starting tomorrow is much more likely).
They're still sexually attracted to children, even if they're fictional, so "pedophile" is technically accurate.
Not a psychologist but I don't think someone who is exclusively attracted to fictional loli/shota content but not real children should be diagnosed with pedophilia disorder. If this is the case then it is not technically accurate to refer loli/shota as pedophilia. But I don't think we can continue this discussion further without a professional's opinion.
Not a psychologist but I don't think someone who is exclusively attracted to fictional loli/shota content but not real children should be diagnosed with pedophilia disorder. If this is the case then it is not technically accurate to refer loli/shota as pedophilia. But I don't think we can continue this discussion further without a professional's opinion.
Yeah, I'm not a psychologist either. I think it fits in the most literal sense, but for all I know clinical psychologists might draw a distinction between the two. I still don't think it will make a difference either way in the eyes of someone against people consuming loli/shota content.
To be more specific, how does fictional loli/shota affects reality negatively?
i cant speak for everyone, but in my opinion id say as most of those who like the genre are adults, and most of the time, get off on the sexually explicit nature of alot of the arts simply because they cant act out on their urges towards actual children. Thats just what i think, anyway. I dont think people who disagree with it are closeted pedophiles, just people who are concerned.
i cant speak for everyone, but in my opinion id say as most of those who like the genre are adults, and most of the time, get off on the sexually explicit nature of alot of the arts simply because they cant act out on their urges towards actual children. Thats just what i think, anyway. I dont think people who disagree with it are closeted pedophiles, just people who are concerned.
Okay, let's assume this thing you've just made up is true. What's the negative effect? You haven't actually suggested one. Rather, you've just suggested that people who like loli/shota must be pedophiles, in which case they're already a threat to society with or without the availablility of loli/shota content. If anything, the fact these alleged pedophiles are directing their desires towards fictional media with no victims sounds like a plus, to me.
Blank_User said:
They're still sexually attracted to children, even if they're fictional, so "pedophile" is technically accurate.
This is the equivalent of saying someone that enjoys killing NPCs in videogames is still technically a murderer. If they aren't committing real crimes, then it's not accurate at all. Pedophilia is a psychological disorder, consumption of actual CSAM is a crime. Studies on the topic have never found a correlation between fictional content and people that actually have the disorder, and fictional loli/shota content is not considered CSAM by most child abuse relief organizations (there aren't any I'm aware of that do).
Regardless of what random idiots on Twitter think, the constant misuse of the word pedophile, CP, CSAM, and other related terms is nothing but a detriment to any legitimate attempts to fight real life child abuse. Actual convicted pedophiles are constantly trying to get themselves labeled differently specifically because it makes it easier for them to fly under the radar. MAP was a term literally coined by a convicted child abuser and adopted by dumbass Twitter users.
Okay, let's assume this thing you've just made up is true. What's the negative effect? You haven't actually suggested one. Rather, you've just suggested that people who like loli/shota must be pedophiles, in which case they're already a threat to society with or without the availablility of loli/shota content. If anything, the fact these alleged pedophiles are directing their desires towards fictional media with no victims sounds like a plus, to me.
Like i said, i can only speak for myself and what ive seen and heard. Just because it doesn't line up with your disagreement doesn't mean its false or made up. In any case, there have been many cases of people acting out on said urges all around the world. Itd be best to broaden your research if you believe others words to be automatically false. Im glad you were willing to share your view on this.
This is the equivalent of saying someone that enjoys killing NPCs in videogames is still technically a murderer. If they aren't committing real crimes, then it's not accurate at all. Pedophilia is a psychological disorder, consumption of actual CSAM is a crime. Studies on the topic have never found a correlation between fictional content and people that actually have the disorder, and fictional loli/shota content is not considered CSAM by most child abuse relief organizations (there aren't any I'm aware of that do).
Regardless of what random idiots on Twitter think, the constant misuse of the word pedophile, CP, CSAM, and other related terms is nothing but a detriment to any legitimate attempts to fight real life child abuse. Actual convicted pedophiles are constantly trying to get themselves labeled differently specifically because it makes it easier for them to fly under the radar. MAP was a term literally coined by a convicted child abuser and adopted by dumbass Twitter users.
That's exactly my point. The word "pedophile" could mean at least three different things depending on who's using it: the most literal meaning (love/obsession toward children), people with the actual psychological disorder regardless of actions (I saw no mention of fictional content in the DSM-5), and sex offenders. This means it can easily be abused with the equivocation fallacy:
"Lolicons are pedophiles. Pedophiles are dangerous. Therefore, lolicons are dangerous. Q.E.D."
That's why I don't think it's productive to argue with those people over terminology. Even if they understand that loli/shota isn't equivalent to CSAM, they are unlikely to be convinced that lolicons and shotacons shouldn't be classified as pedophiles. Any attempt to convince them will just sound to them like obfuscation because they care more that someone's getting off to anything representing a kid than whatever terms lolicons and shotacons prefer to call themselves (which is why using murders in video games as a counterexample is also ineffective; they don't see it as immoral to kill an NPC with a few button presses and can more easily disassociate with it).
I'm not justify the positions of the anti loli/shota crowd. I'm showing that because of how they see things, debating them on terminology is not a productive strategy.
I have no fucking clue why you chose to upload RageFace-tier art, screencap Twitter drama and put it into our assets, and then explain said Twitter drama to us in the comments knowing that it would create a shitstorm. All about some F-tier Undertale porn artist and an artist with half a portfolio of "flaggable, ngl".
Like, that's unironically treating Danbooru as a subreddit for calling people out. Stop that. Especially since the people who would support your callout would lynch you for all those Yuru Camp and Bocchi lewds you upload.
I'mma go upload FE Engage Anna blowjob pics just to spite all of this.
I have no fucking clue why you chose to upload RageFace-tier art, screencap Twitter drama and put it into our assets, and then explain said Twitter drama to us in the comments knowing that it would create a shitstorm. All about some F-tier Undertale porn artist and an artist with half a portfolio of "flaggable, ngl".
Like, that's unironically treating Danbooru as a subreddit for calling people out. Stop that. Especially since the people who would support your callout would lynch you for all those Yuru Camp and Bocchi lewds you upload.
I'mma go upload FE Engage Anna blowjob pics just to spite all of this.
But HyphenSam was arguing for the lolicon side. Wouldn't the people supporting the callout be okay with those lewds?
Anyway, I'm also partially at fault. I didn't really need to explain my position in so many words and potentially invite more arguing when all it really boils down to is:
Don't engage.
Don't debate about semantics.
Stay out of rabbit holes (that one's more for me).
Or I could've just posted a reaction gif like everyone else, I suppose.
