It sucks that Sayaka got the short end of the stick, she still dies, and I almost thought she really wasn't that important to Madoka when she didn't show up in the cake time scene but Mami and Kyouko did. Even though she didn't die feeling bitter, it depresses me as a Sayaka fan
Well, Madoka's wish didn't do much of anything. The whole cycle of grief exists, Mami and Kyouko are still as emotionally broken as before since they no longer had Madoka and Sayaka, and seeing as how Homura is alone at the end she still is in her Nihilistic ways.
What are you people talking about? that was about the happiest ending the series could have without feeling like a complete cop-out.
A LOT of things changed. Magical Girls no longer turn into Witches, they simply die when they burn out their magic and then Goddess Madoka comes and purifies their Gem and takes them to some sort of Afterlife. Madoka offered Sayaka the chance to come back but Sayaka turned her down saying Hitomi and Kamijou where Happy Together and she was happy for them, so Madoka does the best thing she can for her, let her die as a real Hero of Justice.The QB's are now much more friendly, with their current relationship being more of a Partnership then it was before with the girls being nothing more then mere tools. Sure theirs still trouble in the world, but their must be an equilibrium so if Magical Girls exist then their must also exist an opposite of them that they fight. The girls also work together more closely now then before which is also much better then how things used to be.
Really I don't see how anything is depressing, sure it's not a Fairy Tale "They All Magical Lived Happily Ever After" but from Day 1 that was not a possible ending. The ending message is really that theirs still Hope in the World, their maybe Dark Times and Times where you want to give into grief, but with a strong will and a strong belief in hope then the chance of happiness is the reward.
Emporer-Wakamoto said: Really I don't see how anything is depressing, sure it's not a Fairy Tale "They All Magical Lived Happily Ever After"
People were hanging on either that or a Ideon-esque 'everyone dies' GRIMDARK ending. Middle grounds and third ways always feel like cop-outs to those who want extremes.
RNGCombo said: People were hanging on either that or a Ideon-esque 'everyone dies' GRIMDARK ending. Middle grounds and third ways always feel like cop-outs to those who want extremes.
I liked the ending. It didn't ruin the last 11 episodes of character development with a total Deus Ex Machine yet offered enough hope that everyone got to find a good enough sort of happy ending from the sacrifices they chose to make. Still I wished they spared an episode 13 for more in-depth character summaries for everyone. Mainly Mami and Kyouko though. That's all.
Just the fact that they simply traded one evil for another. The only "good" change is that Madoka is there to receive the girls when they burn out, which I admit is a good thing for the crap they go through, but it's not something that equals good in the large scheme of things.
After all, the Puella bring despair by the mere fact of existing, not through their hopes.
"Madoka offered Sayaka the chance to come back but Sayaka turned her down"
Actually, that never happened...and it's questionable if Reaper Madoka would even be capable of such a feat.
You can interpret her as GODoka who rules over a world where some things still can not be changed (some goddess she is then, though...), or as simply an entity that resulted from her wish (she replaced the witch system with something else that she is watching over, leaving everything else the same). But since we are warned that she is unable to interact with most things in this state, bringing people back to life is unlikely in either case.
Vree6 said: But since we are warned that she is unable to interact with most things in this state, bringing people back to life is unlikely in either case.
If I'm not mistaken, I believe Madoka actually apologizes to Sayaka for not being able to bring her back.
Though, the ending itself I thought was very good, though I feel as though it could've been better. Maybe it was just my expectations tainting it, but I wanted some epic final battle. Madoka pretty much defeated Walpurgis Night and that Grief Comet in one hit apiece. I know the anime isn't really centered around fight sequences, but rather a more existential, philosophical theme, but I can't help but feel like the ending would've been improved by an epic Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann fight with Walpurgis Night and the Greif Comet, climaxing at Madoka's wish before descending into the epilogue.
That's not to say I didn't like the ending. I thought it was fantastic. If anything, I'd probably just want a little more story on the final moments and lives of each of the characters sans Madoka.
"Madoka offered Sayaka the chance to come back but Sayaka turned her down"
Actually, that never happened...and it's questionable if Reaper Madoka would even be capable of such a feat.
You can interpret her as GODoka who rules over a world where some things still can not be changed (some goddess she is then, though...), or as simply an entity that resulted from her wish (she replaced the witch system with something else that she is watching over, leaving everything else the same). But since we are warned that she is unable to interact with most things in this state, bringing people back to life is unlikely in either case.
She essentially created a new timeline, or rather, universe. She acknowledged the fact that magical girls were necessary for the development of mankind and didn't interfere with their contracting or demise. It's unknown to what extent was she able to affect the universe while it formed, but I got the impression she *could* interfere with pretty much anything if she wanted to. All we know is that she destroyed every witch before she was born and took the magical girls into some sort of afterlife, which is an infinitely more adequate end for the heroes they are than living on in a twisted, insane form, destroying what they wanted to protect. She probably could have changed Sayaka's fate so she didn't contract and it wouldn't even matter on the large scale, but Sayaka didn't regret her wish and was fine with the result. As for the demons, they seem to lack the positive feedback of witches (strong witch can be only defeated by a stronger magical girl, who turns into an even stronger witch, etc.) and they also seem to be more of a natural phenomenon (people get sick) than a part of Kyubey's plot (livestock gets slaughtered).
Just the fact that they simply traded one evil for another. The only "good" change is that Madoka is there to receive the girls when they burn out, which I admit is a good thing for the crap they go through, but it's not something that equals good in the large scheme of things.
Actually no. She changed more than that.
By changing the system Magical Girls are now an inherently good thing on the world. They actually fight to protect people now, and are not doomed to become witches that kill people and undo all the good things they do. Remember that most MG know quite well the risks of fighting that hasn't changed.
Also one other important change is how Kyubey treats the girls. In the new system they are entirely dependent on the killing of demon curses for energy. That means that it's in the Kyubeys interests to make sure MG's LIVE through their battles. They are still the same heartless bastards, but now they don't actively try to make sure they become witches.
it seems pointlessly cruel to leave the rule that Puella Magi die when they run out of magic intact. (This is also what ended the life this world's Sayaka.)
Another clue: demons could(!no proof that they are not the same or even worse) theoretically be less territorial and more likely to force magical girls into cooperation rather than competition the fact that they still offer "dark cubes" (replacing grief seeds) probably creates plenty of conflict. This and more speaks to me that Madoka does not have a lot of influence, if any.
Of course, if you interpret her as literal GODoka then there are other questions - supposing of course, that just getting rid of the grief/hope equation is the one rule that she still cannot unmake, we would be probably be seeing a lot more historical changes if she had just tried to spread it in a way more beneficial to humans. And even if Kyubey wasn't just talking nonsense about Incubators contributing to humanity's development, finding a motivator that does not involve agents who incapable of empathy and motivated by self-interest (Homu implies that the Incubators have the same basic nature as always) should be a relatively easy task, as well.
Vree6 said: it seems pointlessly cruel to leave the rule that Puella Magi die when they run out of magic intact. (This is also what ended the life this world's Sayaka.)
That's not cruel at all, I believe. The most cruel part of the original system was the magical girls degrading into the very thing they were fighting, without any knowledge beforehand. By comparison the current situation of being "sent away" by Madoka when one's soul gem runs out, instead of an entity of destruction, is a far less cruel situation.
Also, Madoka was stated to be reborn as a force of nature, something that by definition is bound by the other laws of nature. In the real world, for example, gravity will not just work completely independent of magnetism; the laws concerning the two must rationalize with each other. Madoka wished for a world without witches, past, present, and future, and was reborn as a force of nature to make this a reality. Wishes granted to magical girls give them means to carry out their wish; in the old system, it meant representing and causing the same amount of grief that they removed with their wish. The only way for Madoka's wish to to be granted was for her to be reborn as a force of nature, something that is completely far-reaching and universal. If a conscious being were to take on the role of a universal law, the best term that we have to describe what she becomes is "God".
But still, as I mentioned before, Madoka, as a force of nature, must still work within the limits defined by the other, current forces, including the problem of heat death that Kyuubey is trying to remedy. Furthermore, Kyuubey's speech about human progress being reliant on magical girls should be taken as fact. He has no reason to lie about that, and would gain nothing from making it up. Magical girls still have to exist to maintain this, and in the same way as before as to result to the same "future" that Homura and company live in and is shown to experience. The timeline after Homura may diverge from the original, but the fact that we see her in pretty much the same future, even with Sayaka dying in the same place, is reason to believe that everything had to have been restored in such a way that the same timeline up until Homura is still carried out.
I do think Madoka has some influence, though. She is still conscious, and given god-like power, she can probably alter things that do not directly contradict other forces of nature or change the timeline, like insert "shadows" of herself into the memories of her family members, or maintain Homura's memory of the previous timeline. I don't see her as an all-powerful, omnipotent being for reasons stated in my previous paragraph, but she has the distinction of being conscious - benevolent at that - not simply a mechanism that dictates how the universe works with no emotion.
Vree6 said: it seems pointlessly cruel to leave the rule that Puella Magi die when they run out of magic intact. (This is also what ended the life this world's Sayaka.)
[/spoiler]
It makes sense to me though. MG are powered by their souls, hence why their life are tied to it. I don't see how you can get around that. You can't truly destroy the system since Kyubey stated they are MG's are pretty much the backbone of all civilization. So Madoka just changed it to benefit everyone.
And as Mami (in the new timeline) said they all knew the sacrifice they make. And Sayaka died on her own terms rather than becoming a witch before. There's a huge difference there.
That's not cruel at all, I believe. The most cruel part of the original system was the magical girls degrading into the very thing they were fighting, without any knowledge beforehand. By comparison the current situation of being "sent away" by Madoka when one's soul gem runs out, instead of an entity of destruction, is a far less cruel situation.
This is like saying that being tortured to death is better than getting the lethal injection. It might be true but it's still a crappy situation. Can someone explain to me how this is supposed to be a happy ending?
Comartemis said: This is like saying that being tortured to death is better than getting the lethal injection. It might be true but it's still a crappy situation. Can someone explain to me how this is supposed to be a happy ending?
It's not. It's less "happy ending" and more "It could be worse" ending. Which is part of what makes it great, in my opinion. As someone pointed out before, Madoka could've have ended "happily" since day one (or ep 3, rather), without it feeling like a total cop-out. It wasn't that kind of anime for me - It wasn't the underdog battling it out, going from underground to beyond the furthest stars, Gurren Lagann style, but more an existential struggle against immovable forces of nature that had to be rationalized. The ending gets rid of a tragic, cruel, torturous system, and replaces it with one that's markedly less so. If 11 and 12 ending with a completely happy ending - i.e. heat death resolves itself, incubators are no more, and everybody lives a happy, carefree life with the wishes of magical girls working on their own, it would've felt completely wrong. The previous episodes simply didn't have the kind of buildup to make it work.
The MGs entered into the contracts assuming they would get something out of it or make the world a better place. This wasn't true in the original timeline because they turn into witches and undo a lot of their work.
Madoka changed the system so they they won't undo their work by turning into witches and it seems they go to some kind of magical girl afterlife when they die.
Yes they still die, but in this system their choice to become magical girls means much more.
That only accounts for all the nameless puellas that I as the audience don't really give a damn about. The main characters still got royally fucked over in the end. Mami and Kyouko have had their character development undone and they're back to being emotional wrecks. Sayaka is dead. Madoka is deader than dead. And Homura, who suffered more heartache than the rest of the cast put together and by all rights deserved a happy ending more than anyone, FAILED to save Madoka and has to content herself with being the only person who even knows she existed. And yet people are satisfied with this ending for reasons that make no sense to me. Granted, I'm very emotionally invested in these characters and I despise the series for what it puts them through, but this only makes sense as a Good End if you're looking at anyone besides the characters we're supposed to care the most about.
aoi-hoshi said: It's not. It's less "happy ending" and more "It could be worse" ending. Which is part of what makes it great, in my opinion. As someone pointed out before, Madoka could've have ended "happily" since day one (or ep 3, rather), without it feeling like a total cop-out.
Oh bull, I can name one without even thinking about it: Homura fails the same way she failed in the other arcs, but Madoka helps her with a wish designed to follow her into the future arcs (i.e. "I wish Homura wouldn't have to fight alone anymore" or something) and sends her on to the next loop with a heartwarming speech and a renewed sense of hope. It's happy, but open-ended enough that if you must have your bittersweet endings you can still interpret it that way if you like.
Comartemis said: Oh bull, I can name one without even thinking about it: Homura fails the same way she failed in the other arcs, but Madoka helps her with a wish designed to follow her into the future arcs (i.e. "I wish Homura wouldn't have to fight alone anymore" or something) and sends her on to the next loop with a heartwarming speech and a renewed sense of hope. It's happy, but open-ended enough that if you must have your bittersweet endings you can still interpret it that way if you like.
That's pretty much as bittersweet as the actual ending. Interpreting that ending as happy is just as much of a stretch as interpreting the actual ending as happy. In that ending, everything that made the actual ending positive isn't accomplished.
While I appreciate the characters for what they are and abhor their situation for what it is, it's a story, and a good one at that. If there was a completely good ending, themes developed throughout the series that are complemented by a bittersweet or depressing ending would feel half-baked.
If the story had the slow struggle and eventual triumph of the Magical Girls, then yes, a happy ending would've felt good. I keep making the Gurren Lagann reference because it's completely appropriate as a contrasting example. As it is, it's a story about struggle against an immovable force, where hope can shine even in total, undefeatable despair and how that hope can carry a character through the despair. It's a story about how human determination and will is tested in the face of inhuman, uncaring forces, and how the human mind deals with it. If Madoka completely erased this immovable darkness with a plot point brought up in the episode before the finale, it wouldn't have felt right. At least, to me it wouldn't have, and that's why I'm satisfied without a completely happy ending.
The difference is that my ending is open-ended, you can write your own ending and make it as happy or as grimdark as you like. As someone who really enjoys reading fanfiction, this is just about the best ending I'd hoped Urobuchi would give us. But the ending we've got is set in stone. Everything that was accomplished in the canon ending can still be accomplished so long as Homura can still New Game+ to her heart's content, but the things that were done in the canon ending can't be undone without another apocalyptically-powerful magical girl coming along and throwing reality-warping wishes around.
I edited some more thoughts in my previous post, by the way.
I see what you mean, but open-ended endings aren't quite my cup of tea. Unless the series builds itself completely upon the audience interpreting what actually happens, I feel left out by open-ended endings.
aoi-hoshi said: While I appreciate the characters for what they are and abhor their situation for what it is, it's a story, and a good one at that. If there was a completely good ending, themes developed throughout the series that are complemented by a bittersweet or depressing ending would feel half-baked.
That's probably the crucial difference in our outlooks. I can't be happy with a story unless everyone I sympathize with gets what's coming to them, and these girls shed enough blood, sweat and tears to earn a Flawless Victory ten times over, themes be damned.
Comartemis said: And yet people are satisfied with this ending for reasons that make no sense to me.
Of course, it's still a rather grimdark world for everyone, especially the main cast, but now it's a noble quest with a goddess waiting for you at death instead of a horrible joke with aliens treating you like cattle. Plus they know the circumstances of the contract, there's no fineprint or lies of omission anymore and they're doing it willingly and consciously. It's now in Kyubey's best interest to *not* let the girls become emotional wrecks. And yes, she could have theoretically come up with a treaty-level elaborate wish without any loopholes, granting some kind of happiness for everyone, but where would be the fun then? Not mentioning the fact that even the trolls that suggested that she should do exactly this would call it an immense asspull (even though it technically wouldn't be one).
Comartemis said: Oh bull, I can name one without even thinking about it...
That's a horrible ending and I say that as a person no less emotionally invested than you. People would eat you alive for that if you just ended it like that and accuse you of gold digging if you announced a sequel. Open endings suck.
Heparine said: And yes, she could have theoretically come up with a treaty-level elaborate wish without any loopholes, granting some kind of happiness for everyone, but where would be the fun then?
I don't know, where's the fun in a crap ending where nobody gets to be happy?
That's a horrible ending and I say that as a person no less emotionally invested than you. People would eat you alive for that if you just ended it like that and accuse you of gold digging if you announced a sequel. Open endings suck.
Then it's a good thing I don't rightly give a damn what the rest of the fandom wants from this series, since they all seem to have a fetish for watching little girls be emotionally tortured to death. [/quote]
Comartemis said: I don't know, where's the fun in a crap ending where nobody gets to be happy?
You clearly didn't pay attention to the ending. Or do you hate the end so much that you just straw-maned it to force your own view?
Comartemis said: Then it's a good thing I don't rightly give a damn what the rest of the fandom wants from this series, since they all seem to have a fetish for watching little girls be emotionally tortured to death.
Quite a morbid impression you have on the fandom. And a wrong one to, since most of the reaction of the ending is that it left an optimistic feeling. Quite ironic, considering you claim to want an optimistic end and interpreted it the exact opposite.
I'm not satisfied with an ending where the heroines have to screw themselves over for the greater good. This is not a terribly complicated idea Fragbet, where did I lose you?
Comartemis said: I'm not satisfied with an ending where the heroines have to screw themselves over for the greater good. This is not a terribly complicated idea Fragbet, where did I lose you?
So basically you are saying that because the girls get to be ACTUAL superheroes means they are eternally suffering and the fans who liked the ending are sick bastards who like to torture girls? Oh and BTW you know what other Magical Girl show has this as a premise? ALL OF THEM!
Yes you lost me, because your "idea" involves huge amounts of straw-man and exaggeration.
Also you have so far ignored the most important point: Girls become Puella BY CHOICE. They knew what they are getting into. They have every right to do what they want with their lives. Sayaka died in HER OWN TERMS and not because she was depressed like the previous universe.
Fragbet85 said: So basically you are saying that because the girls get to be ACTUAL superheroes means they are eternally suffering and the fans who liked the ending are sick bastards who like to torture girls?
Speaking personally, I only watch shows that contain content I enjoy, in the case of PMMM that means the characters and pretty much nothing else, but I know I'm in the minority in this fandom because of how many people are raving about how this is the greatest series ever or whatever. I assume it's the same for everyone else, because why else would you watch anime if not for entertainment?
Oh and BTW you know what other Magical Girl show has this as a premise? ALL OF THEM!
You, sir, have obviously never watched a proper magical girl series. I just got done marathoning HeartCatch Precure over the weekend, and those girls got to hang up their capes and go back to having normal lives when they were done fighting evil. HeartCatch is hardly the first series to have that type of ending. Many magical girls don't even fight evil in the first place for that matter, look at Cardcaptor Sakura for instance.
Also you have so far ignored the most important point: Girls become Puella BY CHOICE. They knew what they are getting into. They have every right to do what they want with their lives. Sayaka died in HER OWN TERMS and not because she was depressed like the previous universe.
She's dead. Period. Whether by her own terms or not makes no difference.
Comartemis said: She's dead. Period. Whether by her own terms or not makes no difference.
Your free to express dislike of the way an author does/doesnt revive a character but sheesh....dude.
So you want the wish system to be like the dragon ball system and start reviving people left and right? Look what happened there, dying just sort of lost its purpose there.
Sayaka got to die a hero and was content with the fact that the one guy she loved wasnt going to love her back. Let her have her peace of mind
And this is coming from someone that actually ALWAYS wants happy go lucky candy gumdrop endings even if they are asspulls.
I still liked the ending. Now you know what was F'd up? Neon Genesis Evangelion.
Tetsamaru said: So you want the wish system to be like the dragon ball system and start reviving people left and right? Look what happened there, dying just sort of lost its purpose there.
I'd prefer it if they didn't die in the first place, but I'll take what I can get. Also you assume wrongly that I care whether death has any meaning or not, but resurrections do not automatically equate to death having no meaning if it can only happen under extreme duress or in very specific circumstances. Your Dragonball comparison fails because the balls were used over and over, not just once at the end of the series.
Sayaka got to die a hero and was content with the fact that the one guy she loved wasnt going to love her back. Let her have her peace of mind
Dying a hero isn't a reward no matter how you spin it. The events that led to you dying a hero might give you some peace of mind, but you can have that while you're still alive too. More to the point though, her death leaves Mami and Kyouko high and dry with none of the character development that helped them stop being emotional wrecks.
This is entirely separate from the fact that I'm a Sayaka/Kyouko shipper, and splitting them up for the benefit of a guy who didn't give a crap about Sayaka makes me rage for a completely different set of reasons.
I still liked the ending. Now you know what was F'd up? Neon Genesis Evangelion.
Eva wasn't fucked up until the last few episodes, PMMM was fucked up from episode 3 onwards.
Comartemis said: I don't know, where's the fun in a crap ending where nobody gets to be happy?
Did we really watch the same show? I'll say it again.Everyone was given a chance to be happy on clear and fair terms, without aliens screwing them over for extra despair energy. It depends completely on them how they deal with the wish, or whether they make the wish in the first place. Yes, they can still die if they overexert themselves or are defeated, well, I can't exactly see the eternal damnation in that, as it's nearly identical to your ordinary seinen mahou shoujo deal. You also seem to be fairly upset about Sayaka being true to her ideals until the very end, which was probably the best ending she could get after being pictured as a spiteful hypocrite in the last episodes of her arc.
Or would you want a Mai-HiME like ending, that completely disregards the plot up till the last episode just so people like you can have their love&peace end?
Then it's a good thing I don't rightly give a damn what the rest of the fandom wants from this series, since they all seem to have a fetish for watching little girls be emotionally tortured to death.
If you really thought you will get an ending that will render everyone absolutely happy, you should have dropped the show after the first few episodes and write a fanfic or something. The ending wasn't flawless, but bitching and moaning about everyone not living happily ever after is childish and pointless.
I don't think anyone would argue that we would all have liked a nice happy sugar ending. The problem is that this was a short series to begin with. If it was at least extended to 24-26 episodes or maybe a 56-64 deal. It would have been enough time for the characters to try to work out every possible loophole they could exploit. Which they totally could if they had the right info. But the series needed to "end" NOW as per the schedule.
Without it seeming like an asspull anyway. Also its not like the characters have the same clairvoyance the viewers get as well.
Alot of people already agree that we got a Deus ex machina ending and only 1 person could use it. Actually, on the forums alot of people wished we would get a 2nd season or at least the series be extended to have Homura do another loop. As in this loop was hopeless but also gave her some new insight which she could take to the next loop. We dont know how many times she looped but it had to have been way over at least 10+ or 20+. Homura was actually surprised a few times so it shows shes still learning new things.
I most diffenetely would have been in favor of that anyway. But we all knew that was wishful thinking at best.
Heparine said: Or would you want a Mai-HiME like ending, that completely disregards the plot up till the last episode just so people like you can have their love&peace end?
Did I not just say that I don't give a damn whether death has any meaning in this series? Yeah, I'd take this ending over the canon one any day of the week, asspull or not.
If you really thought you will get an ending that will render everyone absolutely happy, you should have dropped the show after the first few episodes and write a fanfic or something.
I've never known good fanfiction to be written by people who didn't watch the series.
Guys, I just had this series on my hard drive for a couple weeks, and just watched the first two episodes as of this writing, and I'm waiting on Chihiro for the last two. Even though I'm grateful to you for covering up the spoilers, I wish you could've covered up ALL the spoilers!
Thundercross said: and I'm waiting on Chihiro for the last two.
You didnt happen to download Chihiro's troll 11th episode did you? Cause that was HILARIOUS. Even if you dont understand japanese at all, it was obvious. I would have did a more subtle troll though.
