Wait, so did Marisa take over Shanghai without Alice noticing or did Alice absorb all of Marisa's powers and then sacrifice Marisa to bring Shanghai to life?
I don't think it is especially immortality. But god, with this twist, I can't say if i am really angry against Alica/Marisa or against Alice OR against Marisa.
I don't like this "I WANT TO CHEAT DEATH". Gud, I know that Alice will live longer than Marisa, and so what? I mean, it isn't rare that in a couple, one of the two die before the other. And the other can live many years after that.
In the case of their 'love', I know this will not please many people but for me, it isn't love. If you can't accept death, if you aren't capable of live for yourself and for a future that your lover want you to accept, you aren't in love.
You are just sick. Death is normal, death is painful but when you want to cheat death, to beat it, you are just doing one thing for me.
You are just showing that, for you, the years that you lived with the person you loved don't count for you.
I mean, what is the point on extend ( not sure of the word, crappy english, sorry guys) in a pathetic way the life of the person you loved, does the happy years you spend with her look so insignifiant?
... Yukari, you just... should have stopped this.
But well, if I have really understand the story, Yukari was talking to Marisa who put her soul in shanghai. Like that, she can be with Alice forever. So it is pretty tragic but... In my point of view, it just make Alice more sick with her dolls.
Death is death, you have the incredible luck to have a paradise, to be a ghost, a soul, to be together again... And you make this?
I am sorry people, I can't help myself but find this terribly wrong.
Oh please, there's nothing noble or natural about death. All your talk of fighting death being a bad thing is just humanity's way of coping with the fact that every human to this day has had to die at some point. A time will come when we do achieve immortality and such notions will be remembered as primitive.
Death is death, yes. But most people dont know what follows. Whether it's paradise, a void, a hell, or anything at all. And most people, fear what they dont know. As such, many fear death, and desire to avoid it.
Also, there is such thing as a noble death as well. (And death IS natural... not sure how you could think otherwise...) I'm sure you're familiar with the term, 'dying happy', right? Well some people desire to die their own noble death. Whether it's dieing against an army to protect their country, or against a single individual in a fair 1 on 1. Whether they're dying due to having a heart attack at age 89, fucking a beautiful woman, or dying old next to the one they love. That is their noble death.
Now, here, it seems that Alice doesnt know Marisa is inside Shanghai, so you cant blame Alice for sticking Marisa in the doll. And Marisa herself seems to fully understand what she's doing too. Death isnt unknown to her, she's visited the afterlife and talked to the ghosts countless times. She didnt fuse into the doll to escape death out of fear, she fused into the doll to protect the one she loves.
I didn't mean to say you cannot have a noble death. I'm saying that there's nothing inherently noble about dying of old age. Just because we currently lack the technology to prolong lives eternally doesn't mean that doing so is evil.
Doing harm to others in order to selfishly prolong your lifespan like many villains in fantasy stories do is bad, yes, but the act itself is not.
And saying "just accept death, it's natural" is like saying that there's no point in protecting your house against lightning strikes. No thanks, I'm going to use what we've learned through science to stay alive.
I'm sure 'over population' isnt unknown to you. So, what if everyone stopped dying?
It's not unusual or unnatural to wish one a long healthy life, but the world does need balance. In the end, it can NOT sustain a planet full of immortals, who keep multiplying.
So, I do have to say this, "Accept death. It's natural."
It's sad, but it's true. We cant live if no one dies.
'Sides, I'm sure you also know of the phrases, "Without light there cant be dark (and vise versa), Without sadness there cant be happiness (vise versa)". If we never known the pain of losing a loved one, how do you think that will go? Another phrase, "You dont know what you have until it's gone". Losing someone, something, your house due to a lighting strike, are very important lessons people must learn. These sad emotions in turn are balanced with our love.
There are people who's willing to pay/do/surrender anything just to have a few second more to live at their death-bed so long as it is possible. Unfinished business perhaps, such as dream, love, or even revenge.
Most people expose themselves to information that is comfortable to their own worldview. It is uncomfortable to do otherwise. Whatever has happened in the past (in this story) surely is strong enough set out the road Marisa is taking now.
Because no matter how much of an expert you are in life, no matter how much you claim to know a person, you couldn't read a person's heart. So you could never know everything that was in her heart or truly understand her passion for taking the choice.
You mustn't blame a person for willing to live for whatever reason.
Lord_Enki said I'm sure 'over population' isnt unknown to you. So, what if everyone stopped dying?
It's not unusual or unnatural to wish one a long healthy life, but the world does need balance. In the end, it can NOT sustain a planet full of immortals, who keep multiplying.
This is true, which is why a planet of sensible immortals will have to cut down on the birth rate. But that's no reason to ask a person to DIE.
Losing someone, something, your house due to a lighting strike, are very important lessons people must learn. These sad emotions in turn are balanced with our love.
Wait, so are you saying that people should never have invented lighting rods? Because they did, and lightning strikes aren't a problem anymore. That's why I used that analogy. And the only reason you need to "learn" about the sad emotion you feel when someone dies is because they do. In a perfect world where this doesn't occur you wouldn't need it.
archon256 said: This is true, which is why a planet of sensible immortals will have to cut down on the birth rate. But that's no reason to ask a person to DIE.
Ask? No one asks anyone to die. It happens naturally.
Wait, so are you saying that people should never have invented lighting rods? Because they did, and lightning strikes aren't a problem anymore. That's why I used that analogy. And the only reason you need to "learn" about the sad emotion you feel when someone dies is because they do. In a perfect world where this doesn't occur you wouldn't need it.
A lot of things probably shouldnt have been invented. It's dangerous and unhealthy to be as over populated as we are.
In a 'perfect' world, people wont have emotions. Without knowing that one day it could all be gone, nothing will be cherished. If death was an alien concept, as was loss, pain, regret, etc etc etc, all those 'bad' emotions, there wont be any 'good' emotions either. There is always balance.
Lord_Enki said: So, I do have to say this, "Accept death. It's natural."
"Accept smallpox. It's natural." "Accept smoke signals being the fastest method of long-distance communication possible. It's natural." "Accept no domesticated animals or farming. It's natural."
Think about it for a moment, and you'll realize that lots of 'natural' things kind of suck. I haven't the foggiest idea why it is that so many people think that being 'natural' automatically makes something good.
Lord_Enki said: A lot of things probably shouldnt have been invented.
Fuck that noise. If people do stupid shit with an invention, that doesn't mean it shouldn't have been invented, it means people shouldn't have done stupid shit with it. This trend of passing the buck for human failure onto technology really profoundly pisses me off.
This is totally how I feel, man. If an invention made things worse, then people should find a way to make it better rather than blaming it on someone else and ditch the whole thing.
On a side note, can someone think of an invention or technology that, until now, has only created stupid shit while having the potential for much better stuff?
On a side note, can someone think of an invention or technology that, until now, has only created stupid shit while having the potential for much better stuff? [/quote]
Powerful guns that don't serve any purpose other than killing other humans more efficiently. Though I think earlier guns do have a purpose as they helped make hunting easier.
I pretty love how the subject has change. I talk in this case precisely, not another, not in general.
In this case, Marisa apparently die and she choose to put herself in shanghai for be near to Alice. (If I understand well) I don't understand this will to cheat death like that. She could have become a magician, she could have wait that Alice join her in the 'purgatory' (Don't really know the name, sorry for that).
But she make a terrible choice. This is just sick, seriously.
You can talk about how death suck, you can vote down a message, you can talk about many stupid thing like we will be immortal in the future (Nonsense, the necrose [I am not sure if the term is correct, sorry if I am not understable] is in our genes, this is programmate, and even if we cheat that, our corpses will just get old in a point that we will be useless).
I am just saying a point of view, and I just wanted something else than a vote down who hide a simple point of view, not vehement (I will be really pleased to read why some people don't think it is a bad thing).
I don't say that you must think that something is 'good' because it is natural. It is just that it is how it is, this is like when you born, you don't have the choice of that. Maybe if Marisa died in a brutal way in this history, i could understand why she make this choice.
But death is death, things need a end or a reward for me. You live the fullest for be rewarded by satisfaction, you need death to put yourself forward. We have so many histories in touhou who show the boredom of eternal like with Kaguya. Why people don't want to understand that death is a incredible things because you CAN'T control your own death.
This prove that you aren't a god, that the life isn't your storie, that you are only a star in a incredible ocean of star. And you will fade away.
I don't know... I fear death, seriously, I am so afraid of dying. Nothing is so scary but... But it make me alive to know that I must do something, because I know I won't be satisfied if I don't live with a but, with a goal.
Just earn money is a goal in my mind, because I can make stuff. Because I don't have all the world in my hand, I barely have myself on my own hands... So I must be strong and walk for fulfill my life.
So please, no more 'eternity' or 'immortal' or other subject that it isn't needed here. It is just a sad story that I despise, because I think Marisa had other choices than that...
And I am saying that I can understand Marisa if she die by a very brutal death, and she see Alice so broken, and she want to save her, even if it mean this.
glasnost said: "Accept smallpox. It's natural." "Accept smoke signals being the fastest method of long-distance communication possible. It's natural." "Accept no domesticated animals or farming. It's natural."
Think about it for a moment, and you'll realize that lots of 'natural' things kind of suck. I haven't the foggiest idea why it is that so many people think that being 'natural' automatically makes something good.
Never said everything natural was good. Just sayin that death happens. Prolonging to the point of infinity it is no good. 'Sides. Smoke signals are likely significantly worse then cellphones. They require 'fuel', and cant be used for much more then an alert of location.
Fuck that noise. If people do stupid shit with an invention, that doesn't mean it shouldn't have been invented, it means people shouldn't have done stupid shit with it.
Nuke?
Just about every weapon of war has no good use. But again, this isnt what I was talking about.
Nevran said too much to quote
*notices your first post was downvoted; Upvotes it* Nuthin wrong with opinion. I find myself systematically upvoting nearly every downvoted post I see now.
But anyway, You make a good point too; You dont have a choice how/when you were born, you shouldnt have a choice how/when you die.
Though, again. I imagine Marisa is to be a very very smart girl. She knows what the afterlife holds, she likely knows how to become a youkai magician. Why, of all things, she would choose to possess a oversized doll, to stick around and protect Marisa with... Well, maybe the circumstances required for it to be so. Perhaps there was some dangerous conflict, one that took Marisa's life, and threatened Alice's as well. So, wanting to protect Alice (not sure why, since the afterlife doesnt seem bad at all in gensuko), rushed to do what she could, which may very well have been to possess Alice's Shanghai doll.
(also. I read that very first sentence as, "Accept a small hitbox. It's natural." ...This happened each time I looked at it. XD)
It's worth noting that the argument that she should have become a magician or used life magic instead of this is somewhat invalid. For all we know she tried both and failed and was left with this or death.
The_Shadow said: It's worth noting that the argument that she should have become a magician or used life magic instead of this is somewhat invalid. For all we know she tried both and failed and was left with this or death.
That's what I was saying. Time was likely of the essence.
IMO, death is just death, even if someone die fighting a whole army alone so you can your lovers life/country/best friend etc, they still die, so no matter how noble the act dying maybe, the result is the same, and with no guaranties of life after the death, Paradise, Nirvana, Valhalla, or anything like that, then dying becomes something extremely boring.
What truly matters is the person how he/she thinks about death. For someone dying standing and fighting is the only option, for someone else suicide is very viable choice, someone may wanna die near to his/her loved one, and someone may just want a simple death like falling asleep at really old age.
If for you your death is a noble one, then in theory you should be able to calmly accept it, if your death istn, then, again in theory, you should fight until the end to preserve your life. Problem here is being faced with the option of inmortality, near to the person you love, contradicting all the ideals about death.
I would accept that option without thinking about it, for one you get to live forever, and most importantly its besides the one you truly love. But then again, just dying for the person I love would make me happy. Thing is, find what truly makes you happy, I dont think that trying to prolong the time with the person you love is denying all the happy times with that person, and IMO dying for the person you love is one of most noble deaths.
On the subject of immortality, I think Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri summed up my attitude towards it pretty well: "I plan to live forever, of course, but barring that I'd settle for a couple thousand years. Even five hundred would be pretty nice."
Am I the only one who thinks that's really Shanghai, and Shanghai was putting on a show for Yukari? Marisa really has... passed on, and Alice was coming to pay her respects, Yukari pops up with a misunderstanding and Shanghai plays along, pretending to be Marisa, so on and so forth?