sleep_molestation vs somnophilia

Any chance we could alias "sleep_molestation"->"somnophilia" instead of "somnophilia"->"sleep_molestation"? That or maybe there are other ways to handle what the problems I encounter below. If not that, or if I'm missing something, then why is it called "sleep_molestation?"

I noticed that it used to be called "somnophilia", and that seems so much more appropriate AND orthogonal AND what I want to search for.

In my mind, "sleep_molestation" = "somnophilia" + "molestation", with "molestation" suggesting non-consent. And if it's in the context of sex (e.g. penetrative), then I parse "molestation" as "rape". And it feels really super awkward to tag something as being rapey when it's probably ambiguous.

Like, I fantasize about getting pounded in the pussy while asleep. If it were possible and circumstances were right, I'd ask someone to do that to me. That's my fantasy. But I'd rather not have some stranger rando drug me and do whatever-the-heck-ever. That's NOT my fantasy.

With the way things are right now, it seems really hard to have anything make it into my strike zone without having "molestation" leering at me. It takes me out of the scenario and then it feels like I'm watching someone get molested/raped. Ewwww. (I mean, that's fine if it's your thing; I completely understand how kink can do what it do. And I can fantasize about being raped too, but it's kinda circumstantial and I'm not always in the mood. Also my get-raped fetish doesn't seem to mix well with the somnophilia fetish either, for whatever reasons.)

From a more mathy perspective:

• "sleep_molestation" is not orthogonal to "somnophilia" or "molestation", but "somnophilia" is orthogonal to "molestation".
• The basis of "somnophilia (on/off)" | "molestation (on/off)" can represent every possible combination.
• The basis of "sleep_molestation (on/off)" | "molestation (on/off)" can only represent 3 out of the 4 possible combinations. Using this choice of basis, it is impossible to represent the "somnophilia ON" with "molestation OFF" combination (specifically because "molestation" is redundant with "sleep_molestation").

I'm one of the unfortunate people that lives in the exclusion zone of that impossible combination, so I'm here to complain about it ;)

I worry that this won't go well long-term, because people tagging will take "sleep_molestation" at face value and neglect to put any molestation/rape/whatever tags in that they might have otherwise, or may even assume it's an implied tag when it isn't. So then searching for "sleep_molestation -molestation" won't work; it'll mostly include a mix of everything because only a handful of people will understand that "sleep_molestation" isn't actually a tag about "molestation". Or, like in a case I already experienced, I'll just miss the "sleep_molestation" tag entirely because I wouldn't have been interested in that. Instead I'd just leave the ambiguous things with ambiguity, because that permits space for my fantasies, but then there's nothing to indicate sleepsex was involved.

To understand the history a bit, I read this 2023 thread about aliasing "somnophilia" -> "sleep_molestation":
topic #24615

That explanation sounds like "it's because pixiv calls it that", but then I go to the pixiv page and it's called "somnophilia" instead of "sleep_molestation". So I can't understand it in terms of the "it's what pixiv does" reasoning, because that seems to go the other way: following pixiv's example (and e.g. for easing tag importing or w/e), we'd show it as "somnophilia".

I'd also like to mention the "consentacles"->"consensual_tentacles" tag. I found that pretty cool. And I don't see any tags for sleep that are analogous (but feel free to inform me if I'm missing something). That said, I wouldn't want to do "somnophilia" the same way...

It feels suboptimal that the "consentacles"|"tentacle(s|sex)" basis can't encode ambiguity as distinct from nonconsent. That's annoying for me, because I'm OK with either ambiguity or explicit consent, but may want to filter out non-consent. The "somnophilia"|"molestation (or rape)" basis can't encode ambiguity as distinct from consent, but that works fine for me because I almost never need to distinguish between ambiguity and consent. I'll just imagine the ambiguity as being consentual in my own head, and that works. Maybe it would be helpful to have some kind of "explicit_consent" tag, but that sounds like a lot of work that I don't want to ask anyone to do, and also a completely separate issue from the "sleep_molestation" vs "somnophilia" thing.

OK OK I don't want to get too distracted with "consentacles" or, uh, trinary consentuality. I mentioned the consentacles because I think they are a good precedent, but also I think that we can potentially do better with somnophilia vs sleep_molestation (possibly just by aliasing "sleep_molestation"->"somnophilia" and using help text for "somnophilia" to encourage people to add a "molestation"/"rape"/whatever tag if it applies?).

Sorry for the longtext. Also please take this as feedback/request; I don't want to tell anyone what to do. Danbo is good, and I will Find A Way, even if suboptimal. Thank you. <3

BUR #25355 is pending approval.

create alias sleep_molestation -> sleep_sex

What about this? "Sleep sex" is the term used by wikipedia, among others.

gfz said:

BUR #25355 is pending approval.

create alias sleep_molestation -> sleep_sex

What about this? "Sleep sex" is the term used by wikipedia, among others.

The article you linked to describes something completely different. Even if you're referring to the "Not to be confused with" note at the top, it still means we have multiple definitions for sleep sex, which would make it unsuitable as a tag name.

I also don't think many users will consider the possibility of the subject having given consent beforehand. In most cases, it's safe to assume no consent was given, so I consider it appropriate to use sleep molestation for those posts without additional context. I would consider ambiguity much more heavily if the characters are awake.

...
I also don't think many users will consider the possibility of the subject having given consent beforehand. ...

Hello, I'm right here. ;)

In most cases, it's safe to assume no consent was given, so I consider it appropriate to use sleep molestation for those posts without additional context. I would consider ambiguity much more heavily if the characters are awake.

It's actually pretty easy to give permission beforehand. Consent isn't too difficult. I expect the characters to do that, because it's what I would do.

Ngl I'm kinda finding the notion of "let's assume the audience wants to see rape!" to be kinda disturbing. It's fine to want that personally as a kink or something, but projecting it onto other people feels... eh... please don't? Please...

compiler_herder said:

Hello, I'm right here. ;)

Are you "many users"? Pretty sure you're not, you're just one. You can't speak for everyone.

It's actually pretty easy to give permission beforehand. Consent isn't too difficult. I expect the characters to do that, because it's what I would do.

Ngl I'm kinda finding the notion of "let's assume the audience wants to see rape!" to be kinda disturbing. It's fine to want that personally as a kink or something, but projecting it onto other people feels... eh... please don't? Please...

You mean like you're projecting the idea that other people would just assume, without any reason to, that the victim gave consent off screen?

Honestly, you're just putting words in someone's mouth. Maybe don't do that.

There's no reason to assume that a fictional character in a blatantly nonconsensual scenario gave consent offscreen. It's much safer to assume that when the artist drew the character being raped, that's because the character is being raped and not some elaborate case of very convincing roleplay that isn't hinted at anywhere in the image or commentary.

For most people, the fantasy of somnophilia is that there is no consent. Somnophilia is naturally a form of rape in almost all cases. It is enjoyed by most for that specific reason. Just because you choose to inject your own personal fantasy into it doesn't change that something like post #7321880 is nonconsensual without context to the contrary, because that's the default context for this fetish.

blindVigil said:
Are you "many users"? Pretty sure you're not, you're just one. You can't speak for everyone.
...
For most people, the fantasy of somnophilia is that there is no consent.

It seems like you're also trying to speak for everyone when you say things like "For most people, the fantasy of somnophilia is that there is no consent." There's at least one prominent voice in here to the contrary, and presumably you agree with your own statement, which puts us at 50/50 :)

Regardless of what most people's fetish is, I think sleep sex is better because it unambiguously describes what's happening without implying whether the activity is consensual or not.

gfz said:

Regardless of what most people's fetish is, I think sleep sex is better because it unambiguously describes what's happening without implying whether the activity is consensual or not.

Agree with this, so I would support an alias to either sleep_sex or somnophilia.

BUR #25358 is pending approval.

create alias sleep_molestation -> somnophilia

alternative for voting

gfz said:

It seems like you're also trying to speak for everyone when you say things like "For most people, the fantasy of somnophilia is that there is no consent." There's at least one prominent voice in here to the contrary, and presumably you agree with your own statement, which puts us at 50/50 :)

Except that "most people inherently view somnophilia as nonconsensual" is an actually fair statement to make. "The participants actually gave consent beforehand" is context that needs to be specifically stated, otherwise the only logical conclusion to make is that there is no consent. No one would take you seriously if you looked at post #7464122 and tried to argue that it shouldn't be tagged rape because theoretically it's actually just really convincing role-play. Rape implies nonconsent, and that's not a problem because we assume a character that looks like they're being raped is in fact being raped.

If a character is asleep, we assume they haven't consented. If the artist hasn't said otherwise, then that's what's happening, that sleeping character is being molested against their will. Trying to argue that a tag for inherently nonconsensual subject matter isn't allowed to imply lack of consent because it conflicts with someone's personal headcanon is asinine.

Regardless of what most people's fetish is, I think sleep sex is better because it unambiguously describes what's happening without implying whether the activity is consensual or not.

Except when there is no sex occurring and they are just being molested. Most tags with "sex" in the name refer to penetration. Exceptions like group sex exist, but they are exceptions. Sleep sex is no longer accurate if someone's just being felt up.

If you google sleep sex all the top results were for sexsomina, not somnophilia. Of Urban dictionary's definitions of sleep sex 2 of the 6 defined it a sexsomina, 2 defined is as sleep molestation/rape, 1 defined it as consensual, and 1 "accidental" sex while asleep.

blindVigil said:

Are you "many users"? Pretty sure you're not, you're just one. You can't speak for everyone.

I agree. Likewise, I don't think you can speak for everyone either. And I'm hoping that I can show that our difference in tastes isn't a problem, that we can sidestep the differences, and that we can both get what we want.

You mean like you're projecting the idea that other people would just assume, without any reason to, that the victim gave consent off screen?

*I* would, but you don't have to.
Likewise, you can assume the character didn't give consent. Totally valid. Meanwhile, I can imagine that they did.

Honestly, you're just putting words in someone's mouth. Maybe don't do that.

Apologies.

That's like, the intent I felt in the writing, but I can be wrong of course. Perhaps I misunderstood you. Sorry about that.

There's no reason to assume that a fictional character in a blatantly nonconsensual scenario gave consent offscreen. It's much safer to assume that when the artist drew the character being raped, that's because the character is being raped and not some elaborate case of very convincing roleplay that isn't hinted at anywhere in the image or commentary.

For most people, the fantasy of somnophilia is that there is no consent. Somnophilia is naturally a form of rape in almost all cases. It is enjoyed by most for that specific reason. Just because you choose to inject your own personal fantasy into it doesn't change that something like post #7321880 is nonconsensual without context to the contrary, because that's the default context for this fetish.

What I'm getting at is that we can both have what we want.

The key is to not assume it either way. It's not a binary either-or. It can be consent, not-consent, or ambiguous. If we leave it ambiguous, everyone wins.

I'm kinda aiming at that magical thing that happens when one reads a book and the reader visualizes the author's world through their own lens, with their own imagination, and different people can imagine the details in wildly different and even exclusive ways, but there is no one correct vision. They are all valid.

I think this also nicely fits with The Rule of Thumb: "Tag what you see, not what you know" (from howto:tag)

Clearly, neither of us knew what happened beforehand, so neither conclusion should be represented in the tag. There shouldn't be any explicit indication of non-consent, nor should there be any explicit indication of consent. (And if we take the rule literally, then we shouldn't tag consent/non-consent even if we know exactly what happened beforehand.) That's why I'd prefer the "somnophilia" tag: it sounds very neutral and doesn't make assumptions. It doesn't suggest non-consent (and it doesn't suggest consent, either). It just tags/represents what's shown, and nothing more.

gfz said:

BUR #25358 is pending approval.

create alias sleep_molestation -> somnophilia

alternative for voting

Thank you gfz.

Although I'd prefer sleep_sex over sleep_molestation, I just ended up feeling "meh" about it (in the vote before this one) because when I read the wikipedia article that you cited, it read a lot like sleep_sex was more of a solitary phenomena (albeit with non-solitary possibilities) that primarily involved the sleeper subconsciously performing sexual acts.

That's actually really interesting in its own way, and I think if we had art that represented this thing, then I feel like the tag would make a lot of sense as a separate tag for those exact things. (If anyone knows of such works and doesn't mind spending some time to share, I'd love to know about it.)

I also agree with blindVigil's statement about sleep_sex being a bit too narrow:

... Sleep sex is no longer accurate if someone's just being felt up.

Hence my ranked choices are like so: somnophilia > sleep_sex >> sleep_molestation.

I appreciate the vote on somnophilia.

blindVigil said:
Except when there is no sex occurring and they are just being molested. Most tags with "sex" in the name refer to penetration. Exceptions like group sex exist, but they are exceptions. Sleep sex is no longer accurate if someone's just being felt up.

I disagree with your assertion that these are exceptions to a rule. There plenty of tags with "sex" in the name that don't refer to penetration. group sex, clothed sex, happy sex, stealth sex, rough sex, emotionless sex... I could go on. In fact I'd guess that most tags with "sex" in the name do not explicitly refer to penetration, because the definition of sex danbooru uses is much narrower than the english vernacular use.

Something else to keep in mind is that if either of these BURs pass, sleep molestation will not be able to be used in blacklists anymore. Aliased tags don't work (I tried blacklisting trap and could still see otoko no ko posts with no option to hide them). Neither do wildcards (such as *molestation).

Unless blacklists are automatically updated after an alias is made, these BURs could end up making a lot of users see content they don't want to without any warning. This is why I brought up the fact that the average user would recognize these posts as depicting nonconsensual scenarios. Users are expected to blacklist things they don't want to see, so we need to be careful when changing tags that could affect their functionality.

compiler herder said:
Apologies.

That's like, the intent I felt in the writing, but I can be wrong of course. Perhaps I misunderstood you. Sorry about that.

That first post was mine, not blindVigil's. And I can confirm I was not judging your preferences or making assumptions about them. The point I was making was that there are a number of users that don't want to see molestation or rape, and that there's no way they would be convinced these characters gave their consent. These decisions need to be made based on what is best for the userbase as a whole.

compiler_herder said:

I agree. Likewise, I don't think you can speak for everyone either. And I'm hoping that I can show that our difference in tastes isn't a problem, that we can sidestep the differences, and that we can both get what we want.

*I* would, but you don't have to.
Likewise, you can assume the character didn't give consent. Totally valid. Meanwhile, I can imagine that they did.

Apologies.

That's like, the intent I felt in the writing, but I can be wrong of course. Perhaps I misunderstood you. Sorry about that.

What I'm getting at is that we can both have what we want.

The key is to not assume it either way. It's not a binary either-or. It can be consent, not-consent, or ambiguous. If we leave it ambiguous, everyone wins.

I'm kinda aiming at that magical thing that happens when one reads a book and the reader visualizes the author's world through their own lens, with their own imagination, and different people can imagine the details in wildly different and even exclusive ways, but there is no one correct vision. They are all valid.

I think this also nicely fits with The Rule of Thumb: "Tag what you see, not what you know" (from howto:tag)

Clearly, neither of us knew what happened beforehand, so neither conclusion should be represented in the tag. There shouldn't be any explicit indication of non-consent, nor should there be any explicit indication of consent. (And if we take the rule literally, then we shouldn't tag consent/non-consent even if we know exactly what happened beforehand.) That's why I'd prefer the "somnophilia" tag: it sounds very neutral and doesn't make assumptions. It doesn't suggest non-consent (and it doesn't suggest consent, either). It just tags/represents what's shown, and nothing more.

The problem is that you're focusing too much on "what happened before" and not what's in the actual image. A character being sexually assaulted in their sleep is molestation. I don't need to assume they didn't give prior consent, I only need to know that a sleeping person cannot consent. You're saying "well they could have given consent" and I'm saying "They aren't consenting right now and making any assumptions about context that doesn't exist is pointless."

Almost everything in sleep molestation is depicting a nonconsensual sexual assault of a sleeping character, or a character pretending to be asleep (but still unwilling). It's only consensual if you explicitly state it is, otherwise it's nonconsensual. Calling it molestation is more in line with TWYS than anything else, because that's exactly what's happening in what can be seen.

You're free to imagine whatever context you prefer, but our tags shouldn't change just to better support your personal kinks. Assaulting someone in their sleep is inherently nonconsensual, the tag name reflects that.

gfz said:

I disagree with your assertion that these are exceptions to a rule. There plenty of tags with "sex" in the name that don't refer to penetration. group sex, clothed sex, happy sex, stealth sex, rough sex, emotionless sex... I could go on. In fact I'd guess that most tags with "sex" in the name do not explicitly refer to penetration, because the definition of sex danbooru uses is much narrower than the english vernacular use.

I forgot how many "sex" tags there were...

Blank_User said:

Unless blacklists are automatically updated after an alias is made, these BURs could end up making a lot of users see content they don't want to without any warning.

They are so it shouldn't be a concern.

gfz said:

BUR #25358 is pending approval.

create alias sleep_molestation -> somnophilia

alternative for voting

Still in favour of this since topic #18949 because we have other -philia tags to describe various fetishes and it's also a wider net that encompasses both possible consent and non-consent.