Personally, I've never been a big fan of this kind of illustration. I don't like the idea that the abyssals are just a mistake that needs to be erased and replaced with their shipgirl counterpart, I prefer the idea that it's somehow possible to save both and rehabilitate the mental sanity of the abyssal so that one day both human and abyssal can live together in peace.
Personally, I've never been a big fan of this kind of illustration. I don't like the idea that the abyssals are just a mistake that needs to be erased and replaced with their shipgirl counterpart, I prefer the idea that it's somehow possible to save both and rehabilitate the mental sanity of the abyssal so that one day both human and abyssal can live together in peace.
I have to agree, I lost a lot of interest in the franchise after I found out that abyssals were only meant to be destroyed. I mean I have nothing against them being the villains but their ultimate fate feels kinda cruel specially considering that some of them don't appear to be truly evil. A real shame because they were what caught my attention towards this game and the implication that at best they're "purified" into shipgirls feels also like a let-down to me since I prefer their designs way more than the ones of the normal shipgirls.
Personally, I've never been a big fan of this kind of illustration. I don't like the idea that the abyssals are just a mistake that needs to be erased and replaced with their shipgirl counterpart, I prefer the idea that it's somehow possible to save both and rehabilitate the mental sanity of the abyssal so that one day both human and abyssal can live together in peace.
But "rehabilitation" pretty much IS what is going on in an increasing number of cases. (I.E. AA Hime turns into Teruzuki when defeated.) If you listen to their voices on sinking, they actually change their voice into the shipgirl. An abyssal is an evil spirit consumed by fear and loathing, and a shipgirl is a "purified" spirit. Defeat an abyssal, and they turn into shipgirls, if a shipgirl sinks, she turns into an abyssal. In the case of "installation" units like Northern Ocean Hime or Seaport Hime, they presumably have "good versions", as well, but they just don't sail back with the shipgirls.
I guess you could see it like capturing in Shougi, or maybe a "reversible zombie" where if you shoot the enemy with an antidote gun, they turn back into humans.
Besides, do you prefer it if Hoppo really is a nice little girl and players are just repeatedly murdering the crap out of her to satisfy their own greed? The setting they have now pretty much is the only way to tell the story where all the things they do are justifiable, and there really can be a happy ending with everyone living in peace and harmony if you just "cure" enough abyssals with your "friendship beams".
But "rehabilitation" pretty much IS what is going on in an increasing number of cases. (I.E. AA Hime turns into Teruzuki when defeated.) Defeat an abyssal, and they turn into shipgirls, if a shipgirl sinks, she turns into an abyssal. In the case of "installation" units like Northern Ocean Hime or Seaport Hime, they presumably have "good versions", as well, but they just don't sail back with the shipgirls.
I guess you could see it like capturing in Shougi, or maybe a "reversible zombie" where if you shoot the enemy with an antidote gun, they turn back into humans.
Besides, do you prefer it if Hoppo really is a nice little girl and players are just repeatedly murdering the crap out of her to satisfy their own greed? The setting they have now pretty much is the only way to tell the story where all the things they do are justifiable, and there really can be a happy ending with everyone living in peace and harmony if you just "cure" enough abyssals with your "friendship beams".
But there's the problem for me. I like them as abyssals, turning them into shipgirls just makes the abyssal disappear completely and the only thing left is the shipgirl side which is only barely similar to the the "traumatized" and grudgeful girl she used to be. I feel some sympathy for what they are and would prefer to see an abyssal slowly taking a path towards redemption, befriending humanity and leaving her grudges behind little by little instead of just transforming into a 100% good and pure version of her. For example, I wouldn't change Hoppou for a human girl who just happens to have a few similarities to the little monster girl I actually wanted to see finding a happy life along with those who could be her family. Same with Destroyer Hime, as much as I love Harusame it's not the same to see an amputee girl who used to be treated like little more than a living weapon slowly learning to live alongside humans and enjoying a peaceful life with them than just shooting her until she magically transforms into Harusame. For me redemption/rehabilitation is ruined if it's just a matter of beating someone to a pulp until she becomes 100% good, and I'm sure there are plenty of ways to write something that allows an abyssal to find redemption without having to be turned into a human or maybe even a gameplay mechanic like in Ar Tonelico.
I don't know if I get my point across but for me it feels like killing a mentally damaged person and be rewarded with a mostly flawless replacement of that person.
But there's the problem for me. I like them as abyssals, turning them into shipgirls just makes the abyssal disappear completely and the only thing left is the shipgirl side which is only barely similar to the the "traumatized" and grudgeful girl she used to be. I feel some sympathy for what they are and would prefer to see an abyssal slowly taking a path towards redemption, befriending humanity and leaving her grudges behind little by little instead of just transforming into a 100% good and pure version of her. For example, I wouldn't change Hoppou for a human girl who just happens to have a few similarities to the little monster girl I actually wanted to see finding a happy life along with those who could be her family. Same with Destroyer Hime, as much as I love Harusame it's not the same to see an amputee girl who used to be treated like little more than a living weapon slowly learning to live alongside humans and enjoying a peaceful life with them than just shooting her until she magically transforms into Harusame. For me redemption/rehabilitation is ruined if it's just a matter of beating someone to a pulp until she becomes 100% good, and I'm sure there are plenty of ways to write something that allows an abyssal to find redemption without having to be turned into a human or maybe even a gameplay mechanic like in Ar Tonelico.
I don't know if I get my point across but for me it feels like killing a mentally damaged person and be rewarded with a mostly flawless replacement of that person.
I think it helps if you get into the mindset of Japanese "exorcism" stories. These are shipgirls (or even just plain girls with some sort of spiritual capacity to channel a ship spirit) that are infected by an outside force that causes them to constantly relive the moment of a ship sinking until "cured". DMM has other games, as well, where the notion of "evil spirits" are much more realized, and they all look just the same as abyssals.
There's also the BS magic weapon factor, where shipgirls are the ones fighting abyssals specifically because they use magic "purification" weapons that don't harm people, just purify evil spirits, and therefore indiscriminate bombing is perfectly A-OK, and doesn't even hurt the environment from massive oil slicks or anything! Again, less actual gun, more Nanoha "friendship beams".
It's simply because of the nature of the game that they tried to make "sexy abyssals" or "cute abyssals" that would take off as Wanko or Hoppo in the first place, but those are the deviations from the norm in order to make a more cutesy game. For most of the abyssals, simply existing is agony. The notion of why they are ghosts or evil spirits at all is because they bear some form of grudge of which they cannot absolve themselves on their own, necessitating outside spiritual guidance... which in this case involves "16 inch guns" that are only an inch across and fire high explosive friendship.
And if you mention Ar Tonelico, there was something similar in Ar Tonelico 2, with the 'infected' reyvatails needing to be 'have their heads cooled down' by repeated rocket-powered lances and giant laser beams to the face before they could even start the rehabilitation process. KanColle just skips the weird multiple choice part afterwards.
It's not an "exchange" of two different entities, but a clearing away of a spiritual "disease".
Or to put it another way, think of the friendly Hoppo of fanon that Yamato Nadeshiko draws as post-friendship-beaming-to-the-face Hoppo.
It's simply because of the nature of the game that they tried to make "sexy abyssals" or "cute abyssals" that would take off as Wanko or Hoppo in the first place, but those are the deviations from the norm in order to make a more cutesy game. For most of the abyssals, simply existing is agony. The notion of why they are ghosts or evil spirits at all is because they bear some form of grudge of which they cannot absolve themselves on their own, necessitating outside spiritual guidance... which in this case involves "16 inch guns" that are only an inch across and fire high explosive friendship.
I guess it backfired because I feel sorry for almost every single "human" abyssal and want to see them finding happiness in live in a way that doesn't involve making them disappear from existence or be turned into what's practically a different girl altogether. Also there are some pics published in official material which show abyssals like Hoppou or Wanko in more normal situations so I don't see why it would be impossible to make them stop acting evil after being defeated so that they can live normal lives: post #2300594 post #1957073 post #2317092
And if you mention Ar Tonelico, there was something similar in Ar Tonelico 2, with the 'infected' reyvatails needing to be 'have their heads cooled down' by repeated rocket-powered lances and giant laser beams to the face before they could even start the rehabilitation process. KanColle just skips the weird multiple choice part afterwards.
I think it would be nice to see the process, the best part of redemption is the healing in my opinion, but maybe it would be kinda hard to add the dialogue for the rehabilitation into the game.
I don't really mind if they stop acting evil after defeat but the thought that the abyssal will "dissolve" into nothingness and leave only a human girl just doesn't sit well with me no matter how hard I try. I mean seeing that illustration of Wanko and Hoppou playing together, two "monsters" who were meant to be nothing more than the embodiment of negative emotions finding somehow a way to live happily and overcoming their grudges is just too heartwarming compared to just turning them into humans or making them disappear after purifying or defeating them.
I guess you could see it like capturing in Shougi, or maybe a "reversible zombie" where if you shoot the enemy with an antidote gun, they turn back into humans.
I guess it backfired because I feel sorry for almost every single "human" abyssal and want to see them finding happiness in live in a way that doesn't involve making them disappear from existence or be turned into what's practically a different girl altogether. Also there are some pics published in official material which show abyssals like Hoppou or Wanko in more normal situations so I don't see why it would be impossible to make them stop acting evil after being defeated so that they can live normal lives: post #2300594 post #1957073 post #2317092
I think it would be nice to see the process, the best part of redemption is the healing in my opinion, but maybe it would be kinda hard to add the dialogue for the rehabilitation into the game.
I don't really mind if they stop acting evil after defeat but the thought that the abyssal will "dissolve" into nothingness and leave only a human girl just doesn't sit well with me no matter how hard I try. I mean seeing that illustration of Wanko and Hoppou playing together, two "monsters" who were meant to be nothing more than the embodiment of negative emotions finding somehow a way to live happily and overcoming their grudges is just too heartwarming compared to just turning them into humans or making them disappear after purifying or defeating them.
You know, it's best to cut off the domain name when trying to make links. I.E. you can just type post #2300594 or "use quotes" :/posts/2300594 without the space. Following a link like that means people stop using https if the are using it, and not everyone is using the donmai.us server.
For art like that, I again blame a desire to cutesify everything for the purpose of helping sell, even if it doesn't help the overall narrative. There's also official art about shipgirls working at Lawson and other minimum wage jobs, but that doesn't really play too well into the overarching story, either, and probably shouldn't be taken too seriously as "canon". If you want to run with it, though, then that just means they are corrupted, even if they also still have moments of lucidity, but would still have their lives improved if they were purified enough to actually live their lives without the grudges or bizarre body horrors of the abyssals. In the Level 1 Zuikaku story, 'redeeming' the abyssals meant having to carve off the monster body parts before they could kill the now-normal-humans.
And again, the problem is that you're imagining it that character "dissolving", rather than "regaining their senses". For example, read Destroyer Water Oni's lines, and they are based upon the same fear of the night that Hagikaze herself displays, and the voice clearly changes during "sinking" to one that is recognizing who the shipgirl fleet is and what they are doing, making it more a rescue than a killing. There's a deliberate continuity of the character between both forms.
For example, I wouldn't change Hoppou for a human girl who just happens to have a few similarities to the little monster girl I actually wanted to see finding a happy life along with those who could be her family. Same with Destroyer Hime, as much as I love Harusame it's not the same to see an amputee girl who used to be treated like little more than a living weapon slowly learning to live alongside humans and enjoying a peaceful life with them than just shooting her until she magically transforms into Harusame.
Yeah, most people who likes Seaport loves her because she looks a bit scary but doesn't appear to be genuinely evil, that mix of creepy but also beautiful is one of their biggest charm points. It feels like a real cop out to just kill them or transform Wo/Hoppou/CV Oni or any other abyssal into a human since there are so many fans who like them that way, they should just treat abyssal and shipgirl counterpart as two separate entities altogether instead of one that replaces the other but that's just my opinion. Really would like this franchise more if abyssals were more than just enemies who need to be killed/purified/turned into shipgirls or whatever.
Yeah, most people who likes Seaport loves her because she looks a bit scary but doesn't appear to be genuinely evil, that mix of creepy but also beautiful is one of their biggest charm points. It feels like a real cop out to just kill them or transform Wo/Hoppou/CV Oni or any other abyssal into a human since there are so many fans who like them that way, they should just treat abyssal and shipgirl counterpart as two separate entities altogether instead of one that replaces the other but that's just my opinion. Really would like this franchise more if abyssals were more than just enemies who need to be killed/purified/turned into shipgirls or whatever.
However, that's just one slice of fanon. Just like there's an almost purely magical girl-style fanon version of KanColle and a 'they're just robots' version. Saying "it should be that way because many fans like it that way" is asking for the fanon you like more to be declared canon in order to destroy the fanon other people like more... which clearly wouldn't even work, because artists can choose to ignore whatever parts of canon they want when making fanworks, anyway, and fans can choose their fanon on their own.
Besides which, it again opens up the problem that if attacks aren't "purification", and these are all "nice girls you can totally get along with", then in the actual game you want changed, you're playing a genocidal maniac who murders those "nice girls" indiscriminately to gain more points and a bigger harem... That sort of setting puts things in a far worse light than "purifying the corrupted" does.
For art like that, I again blame a desire to cutesify everything for the purpose of helping sell, even if it doesn't help the overall narrative. There's also official art about shipgirls working at Lawson and other minimum wage jobs, but that doesn't really play too well into the overarching story, either, and probably shouldn't be taken too seriously as "canon".
But it isn't like this is a franchise with a super serious tone that would suffer from just having the possibility that abyssals can live normal lives after being defeated. Most things in the game are really cute, even if there are some dark and serious lines the overall tone is filled with cutesy stuff and light-hearted character interaction. And the Lawson art are crossovers so those are obviously not very canon but the art with Wanko and Hoppou doesn't really have anything too far-fetched that would make it look completely non-canon. I don't see why you can't have evil monster girls who become good monster girls after being defeated in the same franchise in which you have school girls with ship parts aided by fairies going to war.
And again, the problem is that you're imagining it that character "dissolving", rather than "regaining their senses". For example, read Destroyer Water Oni's lines, and they are based upon the same fear of the night that Hagikaze herself displays, and the voice clearly changes during "sinking" to one that is recognizing who the shipgirl fleet is and what they are doing, making it more a rescue than a killing. There's a deliberate continuity of the character between both forms.
I said the character was dissolving because that's what this image implies which was the point of my original post. The part with the abyssal shipgirl being "replaced" by the good counterpart is something that just doesn't sit well with me, as I explained in the previous post replacing the damaged and unstable person immediately just isn't the same as the option of having both girls as separate but related entities, one as a shipgirl helping you and the other one after being defeated but saved slowly learning to overcome her grudges and living alongside humans even if she's not a human herself or might look grotesque to some people. I just can't see the same appeal between an immediate transformation/regaining her senses and the long, slow redemption of a girl who was supposed to be nothing more than a creature born out of hate.
However, that's just one slice of fanon. Just like there's an almost purely magical girl-style fanon version of KanColle and a 'they're just robots' version. Saying "it should be that way because many fans like it that way" is asking for the fanon you like more to be declared canon in order to destroy the fanon other people like more... which clearly wouldn't even work, because artists can choose to ignore whatever parts of canon they want when making fanworks, anyway, and fans can choose their fanon on their own.
I'm not talking about fanon, Seaport's lines clearly indicate that she isn't completely evil same with a few other abyssals, are you going to tell me that there's some message that's going to be destroyed just because the game portrays abyssals in a better light, gives them a bit more of development or implies that they can be saved without making them shipgirls? You had an event with girls fighting in their bikinis for God's sake. This isn't a game that's heavy on plot or with a specific lore that would go off-rails by a few additions that some fans would appreciate. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who got very exited for this franchise because of the abyssals only to find out that there's very little more to them in the game aside from being an enemy that needs to be defeated and reward you more shipgirls. Also, the fanon is always going to do whatever it wants regardless of canon, otherwise you wouldn't have all these crazy and whacky doujin that are way more over the top than anything you would see in the game. Fanon takes inspiration on canon, but it will be vastly different depending on the artist/writer.
Besides which, it again opens up the problem that if attacks aren't "purification", and these are all "nice girls you can totally get along with", then in the actual game you want changed, you're playing a genocidal maniac who murders those "nice girls" indiscriminately to gain more points and a bigger harem... That sort of setting puts things in a far worse light than "purifying the corrupted" does.
Purification isn't the only non-lethal way to defeat an enemy and with a bit creativity there are a lot of ways you can achieve this. Do you seriously think I want to see abyssals having more importance/backstory/whatever only to murder them like animals afterwards? The thing I dislike about purification is that it only means that the abyssal version of a shipgirl is little more than a boss that will reward you with a drop instead of actually making an interesting take on the alternate version of a shipgirl or developing as a character/rival. A lot of them are pretty different to their shipgirl counterpart too which only makes it feel like a bigger waste.
But it isn't like this is a franchise with a super serious tone that would suffer from just having the possibility that abyssals can live normal lives after being defeated. Most things in the game are really cute, even if there are some dark and serious lines the overall tone is filled with cutesy stuff and light-hearted character interaction. And the Lawson art are crossovers so those are obviously not very canon but the art with Wanko and Hoppou doesn't really have anything too far-fetched that would make it look completely non-canon. I don't see why you can't have evil monster girls who become good monster girls after being defeated in the same franchise in which you have school girls with ship parts aided by fairies going to war.
Because the game is made first and foremost for the needs of the game. There is no "talk it out" button, there is just a "send your shipgirls out to fight" button. In order to maintain that rather non-serious tone, it therefore needs to contrive its plot elements around the idea that combat IS always the ONLY valid solution, and one that will 'lead to the happy ending' or else you run into the problems that Spec Ops: The Line highlights.
The characters in Spec Ops: The Line were supposed to be rescuing another US military unit and the civilians they were protecting, but wind up killing them all in atrocity after atrocity because in a FPS, literally the only means of interacting with the world is to move and shoot things; the player is literally left with no choice except between committing atrocities and not playing the game.
The desire for a happy family of Wanko and Hoppo showcased in stuff like Yamato Nadeshiko's works are all things that exist completely outside the game, and ignore the needs of the game. That's fine for fanon, but it goes a little too far to complain that the game that made the world you're enjoying had to be a game with gamey elements.
whiteillusion said:
I said the character was dissolving because that's what this image implies which was the point of my original post. The part with the abyssal shipgirl being "replaced" by the good counterpart is something that just doesn't sit well with me, as I explained in the previous post replacing the damaged and unstable person immediately just isn't the same as the option of having both girls as separate but related entities, one as a shipgirl helping you and the other one after being defeated but saved slowly learning to overcome her grudges and living alongside humans even if she's not a human herself or might look grotesque to some people. I just can't see the same appeal between an immediate transformation/regaining her senses and the long, slow redemption of a girl who was supposed to be nothing more than a creature born out of hate.
Yes, and I've already responded to most of those, which gets us pretty close to just talking in circles.
Beyond that, though, I get the sense what you are complaining about is less a matter of philosophy, and more a matter of timing. Even in the Level 1 Zuikaku story, which has a scene basically exactly as you describe what you want, it's still mostly just a *poof* she changed from abyssal to shipgirl with the font type being the essentially the only indicator of which she was at what moment, making it happen at basically one precise instant. In this case, it's again just a matter of tastes versus the needs of whatever the artist wanted to do for their dramatic vision, which I think is less a matter of "undermining the happy-go-lucky tone" of a game that is already a hyper-sanitized every-nation-is-a-good-guy version of World War 2, and more personal tastes or disbelief in the narrative intent of the artist due to breaking suspension of disbelief on how fast a magical transformation can occur.
Because the game is made first and foremost for the needs of the game. There is no "talk it out" button, there is just a "send your shipgirls out to fight" button. In order to maintain that rather non-serious tone, it therefore needs to contrive its plot elements around the idea that combat IS always the ONLY valid solution, and one that will 'lead to the happy ending' or else you run into the problems that Spec Ops: The Line highlights.
That's not what I mean. You have plenty of light hearted lines per character in the game, you can still make a story in which the only way to solve the problems the game presents to you is by fighting and defeating the enemy fleet, but even then you can still add some text or voiced lines explaining a light hearted conclusion to the things that happened during and after the missions or something similar to this. This game has a lot of down-time in which you aren't doing anything too important so I don't see how adding a bit of things to read or listen during it change the focus of the game dramatically.
Beyond that, though, I get the sense what you are complaining about is less a matter of philosophy, and more a matter of timing. Even in the Level 1 Zuikaku story, which has a scene basically exactly as you describe what you want, it's still mostly just a *poof* she changed from abyssal to shipgirl with the font type being the essentially the only indicator of which she was at what moment, making it happen at basically one precise instant. In this case, it's again just a matter of tastes versus the needs of whatever the artist wanted to do for their dramatic vision, which I think is less a matter of "undermining the happy-go-lucky tone" of a game that is already a hyper-sanitized every-nation-is-a-good-guy version of World War 2, and more personal tastes or disbelief in the narrative intent of the artist due to breaking suspension of disbelief on how fast a magical transformation can occur.
The things they did to the defeated abyssals in that story looks way more violent than anything I described or anything in the game, not really seeing your point here. It's also pretty different from what I described because I put emphasis that both versions of the girl are polar opposites, the main problem isn't that one turns good/bad immediately but that one disappears and is replaced by the other one.
That's not what I mean. You have plenty of light hearted lines per character in the game, you can still make a story in which the only way to solve the problems the game presents to you is by fighting and defeating the enemy fleet, but even then you can still add some text or voiced lines explaining a light hearted conclusion to the things that happened during and after the missions or something similar to this. This game has a lot of down-time in which you aren't doing anything too important so I don't see how adding a bit of things to read or listen during it change the focus of the game dramatically.
It would make the game overwhelmingly harder (and more expensive to the point of making the game no longer viable) to program if they were doing anything more than creating some annoying text box that repeats the same lines over and over for literally no gameplay reason to satisfy a group of people, most of whom probably don't even play the game, anyway.
Comparatively, it is vastly easier to simply contrive the already massively contrived worldbuilding of transforming magical girls channeling the power of World War 2 for global peace and understanding to say that shooting the bad guys makes everything better.
whiteillusion said:
That looks way more violent than anything I described or anything in the game, not really seeing your point here.
I'm not even sure what you're referring to, here. *Poof* instant magical transformation is hardly violent at all.
It would make the game overwhelmingly harder (and more expensive to the point of making the game no longer viable) to program if they were doing anything more than creating some annoying text box that repeats the same lines over and over for literally no gameplay reason to satisfy a group of people, most of whom probably don't even play the game, anyway.
Comparatively, it is vastly easier to simply contrive the already massively contrived worldbuilding of transforming magical girls channeling the power of World War 2 for global peace and understanding to say that shooting the bad guys makes everything better.
I'm not saying anything about adding complex and interactive conversations to the game or anything similar. What I said is that adding a few text or voiced lines describing an light-hearted aftermath or something similar to what happened in the event or mission shouldn't be hard at all nor would it be against the tone of the game. Adding text describing something isn't expensive at all, only if it's voiced by an expensive seiyuu and you can easily make so that it only appears the first time you cleared that map/event so that it doesn't become too intrusive or monotonous. It seems like we're not even on the same conversation anymore by reading the previous part of your post, and I don't think we're going to reach any kind of conclusion anytime soon.
I'm not even sure what you're referring to, here. *Poof* instant magical transformation is hardly violent at all.
I edited that part because at first I thought you were linking me to the previous page you linked earlier or something similar.