nah, Shiki doesn't have control over the living, she can offer to give them advice, but if they take it, that's another issue. She certainly wouldn't attack the living unless it was time for them to die, and they refused to accept it.
dandan said: nah, Shiki doesn't have control over the living, she can offer to give them advice, but if they take it, that's another issue. She certainly wouldn't attack the living unless it was time for them to die, and they refused to accept it.
the real origins of Double Spark? seems very likely.
Sigfried666 said: What?! She? Advice? You lost me...
Ok, Shiki is more of lecturing them, and there may some advice toss in between, but, uh, yeah...
though, you know, what with her bringing their past, may be effective enough to make them change their ways, especially if said past was the one that considered Genocide ok
dandan said: Ok, Shiki is more of lecturing them, and there may some advice toss in between, but, uh, yeah...
They weren't talking about Sikieiki (someone once pointed out to me that it's SI-KI-EI-KI but I usually just say Eiki to avoid confusion like this), they were talking about Tohno Shiki from Tsukihime.
Also, Youkai can't be killed unless they get purified by a shrine maiden apparently. Although Shiki's hax powers would most likely still work, if Flandre did this, Yuuka will be back and massively pissed.
Tohno Shiki is the main character in the game-novel Tsukuhime. He has the ability to see "lines" in everything, from objects to people, lines wich can be easily cut across, so he can easily cut objects, people, vampires an possibly youkais in pieces.
nope! I had seen th Tsukuhime tag before but never had found much about it.
Still, this Tohno Shiki would totally lose, even if he manages to cut Yuka into pieces. He lacks the power of Moe, and Yuka obtained the Ultimate Power of Moe (with capitals), the poor bastard, he had his chance, running, but he wasted it
Ah but what use is the power of moe when one is burning with GAR! But trufully Yuka's death in this looks a bit too clean for Shiki's work.
And Sigfried666 Shiki's ablity is a bit more then that. The Chokushi no Magan lets him see the eventual fated destruction of an object or entity expressed as small points on the object or entity's body and as lines that extend from those points and crawl over the body.
Along with the perception is the ability to trace the lines without much exertion; doing so effectively realizes the fated destruction, and because this destruction is destined, this method of injury ignores any of the victim's defenses; armor, magical protection, and so forth.
While a line symbolizes "damage" along that part of the body, a dot symbolizes the totality of that body's damage, and by extension, "existence". When a dot is pierced, the victim's _concept_ is destroyed. This method of killing is pretty much absolute; it bypasses even reincarnation, and can even be used against a collective entity.
As it erases existence, then by extension, the Chokushi no Magan can also destroy non-physical things, such as spells, thoughts, magecraft, and even nature.
Not really. The version of Chokushi no Magan that TOHNO Shiki has is steadily causing his brain to break down, and even with the eyes he's still a short range _human_ fighter in a world of near god-like monsters and is heavily outgunned by quite a few of the other Typemoon characters.
It doesn't help either that as a former member of the Nanya clan, a group who've literally bred their bloodline into demon hunters, that his first reaction toward a dangerous supernatural being is to attack; which given the status of several of the girls in Tsukihime (including both his main love interest and younger sister) provides a bit of interesting story telling.
Bansho said: It's 「四季映姫」 with 「四」 pronounced "shi"... "si" would be "すぃ"...
"Sikieiki" seems to come from Kunrei-shiki romanization...
Uhh, sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with you there. In no Romanisation system I've encountered thus far will 「すい」 be anything but "sui." More to the point, "shi" and "si" are simply inferior approximate representations of the sound denoted by the glyph. It's probably better to not dwell on the different styles too much.
dandan said: nope! I had seen th Tsukuhime tag before but never had found much about it.
If you ever have the chance, I suggest playing the game-novel. The story is quite good.
mangadaemon said: But trufully Yuka's death in this looks a bit too clean for Shiki's work. And Sigfried666 Shiki's ablity is a bit more then that.
Really, too clean for Shiki's work. she would have to be in at least sixteen pieces. and I know his power goes over and beyond my explanation, but I was avoiding doing a big explanation on shiki, seeing as he actually is not related to the pic, and was only mentioned as a joke.
Anyway, I'd take yuka's body with me now... And you know what I mean...
Sigfried666 said:Really, too clean for Shiki's work. she would have to be in at least sixteen pieces. and I know his power goes over and beyond my explanation, but I was avoiding doing a big explanation on shiki, seeing as he actually is not related to the pic, and was only mentioned as a joke.
Anyway, I'd take yuka's body with me now... And you know what I mean...
Opps, sorry about that.
And best of luck though with the lack of a head it might be a bit missy.
DschingisKhan said: Uhh, sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with you there. In no Romanisation system I've encountered thus far will 「すい」 be anything but "sui."
You need to get your eyes checked. He typed すぃ, not すい. There is a difference.
He wasn't exactly correct, mind you, but get your kana straight.
If doujinshi is a credible source of information(and last time I checked, it is), not even a NUKE can kill her. She'll just regenerate in about a half hour.
youkai canot be killed they are spiritet beings how manifestate in a body if the body is killed its like if you got knocked out to youkai depends on power and age they will "respawn" more or less fast even if you destroy the whole body with acid or eat it like in yuyuko did with mystia it dosent matters
Shiki's hax skill wont work well because youkai souls are not bound on the body it would delet the existence of the body waht will result in just yuka getting a new one its best too decribe like a ghost possing a body if he cuts the body the existence of the body is gone if he cuts the ghost the existence of the whole being is gone however you canot cut ghost so its simply hax skill vs hax skill no winner no loser
ah the best respawn rate of touhou has cirno it was mentioned that she can respawn 5-10 sec after being killed most time without knowing she was killed(thinking that she somehow doged the atack)
Isn't Yuuka technically a plant? She might just pick her head up and reattach it or grow a new one like that guy in Men in Black. Either way she's going to be pissed when she recovers.
arkanis said: youkai canot be killed they are spiritet beings how manifestate in a body if the body is killed its like if you got knocked out to youkai depends on power and age they will "respawn" more or less fast even if you destroy the whole body with acid or eat it like in yuyuko did with mystia it dosent matters
Shiki's hax skill wont work well because youkai souls are not bound on the body it would delet the existence of the body waht will result in just yuka getting a new one its best too decribe like a ghost possing a body if he cuts the body the existence of the body is gone if he cuts the ghost the existence of the whole being is gone however you canot cut ghost so its simply hax skill vs hax skill no winner no loser
ah the best respawn rate of touhou has cirno it was mentioned that she can respawn 5-10 sec after being killed most time without knowing she was killed(thinking that she somehow doged the atack)
Actually, your whole argument kinda loses impact when you consider Shiki did destroy someone who was not bound by the body in Tsukihime...in fact, that was the whole point of his powers and what made him so incredible.
Tohno Shiji is no match for her >.> His speed? Still slow compared to hers >.> And I saw Tsukihime and played Melty Blood ... believe... Shiki will get pwn'd if he ever meets Yuuka.
... who did this!? i will find the culprit and cut him or her so much so the blood rushes out every laceration on their body. then i shall decapitate their body piece by piece with a rusty SPOON!!! they will feel the pain!!!! i loved yuuka!!!! i will rush across gensokyo leaving only a bloody path behind me, my rage will be feared!!!!
hyakkiyagyou said: ... who did this!? i will find the culprit and cut him or her so much so the blood rushes out every laceration on their body. then i shall decapitate their body piece by piece with a rusty SPOON!!! they will feel the pain!!!! i loved yuuka!!!! i will rush across gensokyo leaving only a bloody path behind me, my rage will be feared!!!!
Fujiwara no Mokou has no fated destruction because death isn't a part of her existence, so no dots in her for Shiki to pierce. She isn't even subject to the bounds of life and death, so no boundary manipulation for her either.
And she doesn't reincarnate. She resurrects because she quite literally can't play death out.
I really doubt this was Shiki's doing, though, so I wouldn't know how that came into subject.
Yuka is a youkai, I don't think killing her would be as easy as cutting off her head. It just might be like cutting off a plant's top. If you'd want to kill yuka, maybe you should try getting her by the roots.
Greanz said: If Shiki did her i think not only head but her head and body will be destroy.
Not quite. Shiki has two modes of killing something. Slicing their death lines (like he did with Arc) or stabbing their dot which utterly destroys the concept of their existence.
---
Off note isn't just that people who've drunk the Hourai Elixir can't stay dead? Not that it's impossible to kill them but that it's impossible to keep that way for more then a few seconds/minutes.
mangadaemon said: Off note isn't just that people who've drunk the Hourai Elixir can't stay dead? Not that it's impossible to kill them but that it's impossible to keep that way for more then a few seconds/minutes.
No, it's ALL gone. Every, single, bit. If Mokou's entire existence was like an infinitely long string, and at one point of the string there is life and the other (much much longer) death, the Hourai Elixir is like a pair of scissors that cut the strand where "death" starts. If someone were to try to "push" her to her death, there is no death, so she ends up with life. It's not just a few seconds/minutes. It's the entire entity. She can't play it out.
Never mind went and checked it on touhou wiki. It does look like that somebody who's drunk the Hourai Elixir from what it says can die (for a few seconds anyhow) but automatically auto-resurrects no matter what.
I took a look at it myself, and it clearly states they don't die at all. Actually, it looks to me that it's BECAUSE they don't die that they come back, not the other way around.
Taken from the description of the Elixir: Anyone who drinks this forbidden elixir will cease to age, never become sick, and will not _remain dead_ no matter how many times one is killed.
You'll note that they don't say that a person doesn't die just that they don't stay that way.
mangadaemon said: Taken from the description of the Elixir: Anyone who drinks this forbidden elixir will cease to age, never become sick, and will not _remain dead_ no matter how many times one is killed.
You'll note that they don't say that a person doesn't die just that they don't stay that way.
Therefore, Shiki can kill her permanently by eliminating the concept of her existence.
This Shiki guy sounds bad ass. Though he'd probably just get erased by a Yama soon. "But he would just use his Hax powers agains it!" Yeah... No. A Yama is non existing. Not a part of the buddhist or shintoist life/existence, contra everything else. They can't die or stop existing, but neither can they live or exist. You cannot manipulate nothingness. But hell, Yama do not have a destiny. They make them.
mangadaemon said: Taken from the description of the Elixir: Anyone who drinks this forbidden elixir will cease to age, never become sick, and will not _remain dead_ no matter how many times one is killed.
You'll note that they don't say that a person doesn't die just that they don't stay that way.
Torqueware said: Therefore, Shiki can kill her permanently by eliminating the concept of her existence.
To stop existing is not the same as dieing. Mokou can't die, period. By eliminating Mokou's existence he would only make her stop existing, and not die. So the whole Hourai elixir of immortallity discussion is irellevant since it only makes her stop dieing. The thing that makes her more powerfull than fairies and that stuff is that you can bannish fairies and spirits by destroying their connection to the living world, but not normal life like humans and animals.
But on the other hand, if he destroys them by by seing their destiny and then destroys them now so that they are destroyed the way their destiny says they would, it would no longer be their destiny and that would make immortals able to reincarnate or be reborn and make Mokou able to come back to beat his ass another day. If they stay dead in the game, then it's just a plot hole. Everything has them. Even Touhou and Tsukuhime.
HikikomoriDG said: This Shiki guy sounds bad ass. Though he'd probably just get erased by a Yama soon. "But he would just use his Hax powers agains it!" Yeah... No. A Yama is non existing. Not a part of the buddhist or shintoist life/existence, contra everything else. They can't die or stop existing, but neither can they live or exist. You cannot manipulate nothingness. But hell, Yama do not have a destiny. They make them.
To stop existing is not the same as dieing. Mokou can't die, period. By eliminating Mokou's existence he would only make her stop existing, and not die. So the whole Hourai elixir of immortallity discussion is irellevant since it only makes her stop dieing. The thing that makes her more powerfull than fairies and that stuff is that you can bannish fairies and spirits by destroying their connection to the living world, but not normal life like humans and animals.
But on the other hand, if he destroys them by by seing their destiny and then destroys them now so that they are destroyed the way their destiny says they would, it would no longer be their destiny and that would make immortals able to reincarnate or be reborn and make Mokou able to come back to beat his ass another day. If they stay dead in the game, then it's just a plot hole. Everything has them. Even Touhou and Tsukuhime.
Actually, it's still very relevant here. After all, Shiki's eyes are eyes of Death Perception. From what it says about him, his eyes work by "allowing him to see the eventual fated destruction of an object or entity expressed as small points on the object or entity's body and as thin glowing reddish black lines that extend from those points and crawl over the body." In other words, he brings out that fated destruction in them. And that's exactly why there's no defence against it. It eventually happens to them However, Mokou doesn't have this fated destruction because as she said on Imperishable Night, "Death isn't a part of my existence". She's effectively invincible and cannot be destroyed, and Shiki would have no lines no dots to see because it's exactly the thing that's not a part of her. However, Mokou wouldn't be the only one who's effectively invincible to Shiki's eyes. Anything without a fated destruction (aka immortal) wouldn't have dots. Take TATARI for example. Shiki's mind was blown away when he saw her because she also had no dots or lines either.
Mokou said: Actually, it's still very relevant here. After all, Shiki's eyes are eyes of Death Perception. From what it says about him, his eyes work by "allowing him to see the eventual fated destruction of an object or entity expressed as small points on the object or entity's body and as thin glowing reddish black lines that extend from those points and crawl over the body." In other words, he brings out that fated destruction in them. And that's exactly why there's no defence against it. It eventually happens to them However, Mokou doesn't have this fated destruction because as she said on Imperishable Night, "Death isn't a part of my existence". She's effectively invincible and cannot be destroyed, and Shiki would have no lines no dots to see because it's exactly the thing that's not a part of her. However, Mokou wouldn't be the only one who's effectively invincible to Shiki's eyes. Anything without a fated destruction (aka immortal) wouldn't have dots. Take TATARI for example. Shiki's mind was blown away when he saw her because she also had no dots or lines either.
Actually... Mokou *sadly enough* has a fated death, and that happens when the creators decide to destroy everything, and start again... *don't remember where I read it though...*
Shiki's eyes actually don't see 'death' by the way. It percieves the intent of an object *soul, body, item, you name it* to be destroyed, so that it can bacome something more perfect. But since in this world there is no such thing as a perfect existance, everything in the world will have this desire *and no, it is not concious*...
And the reason why he didn't see TATARI's lines is that he is way too untrained in useing his eyes.
GreenDrag said: Actually... Mokou *sadly enough* has a fated death, and that happens when the creators decide to destroy everything, and start again... *don't remember where I read it though...*
Is that so? Let me remind you, the following is quoted from her official profile.
Imperishable Night - キャラ設定.txt said: Species: Human
Abilities: Eternal youth and immortality
A human who has lived forever since consuming the Hourai Elixir.
From what I read, the creator didn't just make her immortal, he made her live forever already. There is no fated death, and I can safely say that.
As for the whole perfection thing... suppose the Hourai Elixir accomplishes that already? If she's made invincible, you can't really destroy her. Actually, that's also in her profile.
Perfect Memento in Strict Sense said: She possesses a body that cannot be destroyed.
So there you have it. She quite literally doesn't have the ability to not exist. It's not a part of her.
Mokou said: Is that so? Let me remind you, the following is quoted from her official profile. From what I read, the creator didn't just make her immortal, he made her live forever already. There is no fated death, and I can safely say that.
As for the whole perfection thing... suppose the Hourai Elixir accomplishes that already? If she's made invincible, you can't really destroy her. Actually, that's also in her profile.
Nah... Perfection does not begin with immortality... An immortal body and soul will have many regrets over the course of eternity, which will make them nonperfect. Though should she get freed from all those feelings, she might become perfect in a sense, but would become a flawed human... You see, it's impossible... Perfect does not exist, because everything has a counterpart. if you bacome perfect in one, you will never perfect the other side... so yeah... I doubt the elixir could provide that.
Perfect Memento in Strict Sense said:
She possesses a body that cannot be destroyed.
Mokou said:
So there you have it. She quite literally doesn't have the ability to not exist. It's not a part of her.
Not existing and being destroyed are not the same things... Not existing carries a stronger meaning of being destroyed, where you will become erased utterly and completely.
GreenDrag said: Nah... Perfection does not begin with immortality... An immortal body and soul will have many regrets over the course of eternity, which will make them nonperfect. Though should she get freed from all those feelings, she might become perfect in a sense, but would become a flawed human... You see, it's impossible... Perfect does not exist, because everything has a counterpart. if you bacome perfect in one, you will never perfect the other side... so yeah... I doubt the elixir could provide that.
Not existing and being destroyed are not the same things... Not existing carries a stronger meaning of being destroyed, where you will become erased utterly and completely.
Everything may have a counterpart, but that does not mean it's imperfect. Suppose immortality for example. It's counterpart is mortality. But that doesn't mean she's upset or sad in a way. In fact, she's exctatic because Kaguya is immortal too, and was in the same mess she was! I would say she couldn't be anymore happy knowing that. Perfection is only a point of view, especially on this subject. So you can't really disprove this either. I could say Mokou is perfect, or at the very least, perfectly incapable of non-existence. She, after all, can't be destroyed and can never die, and there is absolutely no way to negate this or find a hole to work around with. And made non-existent IS being destroyed, it's even in the definition.
Dictionary says: Destroy: de·stroy
–verb (used with object) 1. to reduce (an object) to useless fragments, a useless form, or remains, as by rending, burning, or dissolving; injure beyond repair or renewal; demolish; ruin; annihilate.
And with that, I can also say that if it's alive once, and then isn't, whether it be non-existing or killed, it's dead. Mokou effectively is immortal and cannot die. The very essence, the very being of non-existence isn't a part of her. Even if you force her to that being she is incapable of playing it out, hence it's not a part of her. She'll just resurrect and do the only thing she can in her own universe... live.
Mokou said: Everything may have a counterpart, but that does not mean it's imperfect. Suppose immortality for example. It's counterpart is mortality. But that doesn't mean she's upset or sad in a way. In fact, she's exctatic because Kaguya is immortal too, and was in the same mess she was! I would say she couldn't be anymore happy knowing that. Perfection is only a point of view, especially on this subject. So you can't really disprove this either. I could say Mokou is perfect, or at the very least, perfectly incapable of non-existence. She, after all, can't be destroyed and can never die, and there is absolutely no way to negate this or find a hole to work around with. And made non-existent IS being destroyed, it's even in the definition.
Well... That is a difference in our thinking of perfection here, which is a rather difficult matter, that as long as humans exist, will be a question, so I'd rather not discuss it further. Since from this point, there are many points beside and againts both ways of thinking, and we would achieve nothing, but run a lap, that has been ran many times before
Mokou said:
And with that, I can also say that if it's alive once, and then isn't, whether it be non-existing or killed, it's dead. Mokou effectively is immortal and cannot die. The very essence, the very being of non-existence isn't a part of her. Even if you force her to that being she is incapable of playing it out, hence it's not a part of her. She'll just resurrect and do the only thing she can in her own universe... live.
I don't really care what a dictionary says about the words themselves. And on a sidenote, you only proved my point with it. In making something non-existant, you make it... not exist. Not leaving anything of it. No fragments, that can be used, nor ones that couldn't be. Exist means it is present in this world, not exist means it does not. it might still be present in places outside of this world, but I don't hink even Yukari could get to those places... Meaning... That not exist will erase you. Like the eraser in paint, leaving not a trace (an eraser tool used properly, with multi-check, that there aren't any pixels eramining)
I don't really care what a dictionary says about the words themselves. And on a sidenote, you only proved my point with it. In making something non-existant, you make it... not exist. Not leaving anything of it. No fragments, that can be used, nor ones that couldn't be. Exist means it is present in this world, not exist means it does not. it might still be present in places outside of this world, but I don't hink even Yukari could get to those places... Meaning... That not exist will erase you. Like the eraser in paint, leaving not a trace (an eraser tool used properly, with multi-check, that there aren't any pixels eramining)
Of course making something nonexistent means it does not exist. But Fujiwara no Mokou doesn't have the ability to NOT exist. Don't you get that part? She said it herself "Death isn't a part of my existence". Meaning, she can't NOT exist. She can't play that part out if it isn't a part of her. That's why she will simply resurrect instead.
Mokou said: Of course making something nonexistent means it does not exist. But Fujiwara no Mokou doesn't have the ability to NOT exist. Don't you get that part? She said it herself "Death isn't a part of my existence". Meaning, she can't NOT exist. She can't play that part out if it isn't a part of her. That's why she will simply resurrect instead.
"Death is not part of my existance" means she doesn't have death...
But if you die, you still exist... one way or the other... And that's a general thing for everyone not only Mokou. But not existing is different. You don't have to die to not exist. You will simply dissapear... Like a forgotten god.
GreenDrag said: "Death is not part of my existance" means she doesn't have death...
But if you die, you still exist... one way or the other... And that's a general thing for everyone not only Mokou. But not existing is different. You don't have to die to not exist. You will simply dissapear... Like a forgotten god.
That ultimately means she's dead. Which is something she cannot do. After all, you're either alive, or dead. I can safely say that she's not alive if she doesn't exist, in other words, she's dead. But she cannot die. So she resurrects even from that.
Mokou said: That ultimately means she's dead. Which is something she cannot do. After all, you're either alive, or dead. I can safely say that she's not alive if she doesn't exist, in other words, she's dead. But she cannot die. So she resurrects even from that.
I'm feeling that we might start going in circles soon enough ^^
Death is something like a lv3-5 statuseffect, easilly wears off in Touhou. While not exist is something like a lvl10-15 status effect, and IS permanent no cure, no wearing off, nothing. Meaning while, yes, it appears as she is dead, it still a way worse situation... harder to bring about too, but that's a different matter.
The whole beauty of Mokou, the whole point of her, is that she can never die. If you ask me, it's really cheap to think that making her nonexistent will actually work in making her go away forever. It also makes her boring. We're talking in levels now? It's a bit vague... and I doubt it's even canon in touhou. The whole point of her is that she lived forever. That much is already canon. Eirin is omniscient, and even though that wasn't exactly stated, everything even her name points toward it. Of course, she made the elixir of immortality permanent, or she wouldn't have called it the "medicine of eternal life". If she really is omniscient, she would have made it impossible work around it. The only way I can see this possible is if she's her own existence incapable of being anything but alive. Even nonexistence isn't a part of her existence, so she HAS to live. Everything has to be impossible except her life. Because if there's anything to work around it, even the smallest hole, she isn't really immortal. I think that just about says it all.
Mokou said: The whole beauty of Mokou, the whole point of her, is that she can never die. If you ask me, it's really cheap to think that making her nonexistent will actually work in making her go away forever. It also makes her boring. We're talking in levels now? It's a bit vague... and I doubt it's even canon in touhou. The whole point of her is that she lived forever. That much is already canon. Eirin is omniscient, and even though that wasn't exactly stated, everything even her name points toward it. Of course, she made the elixir of immortality permanent, or she wouldn't have called it the "medicine of eternal life". If she really is omniscient, she would have made it impossible work around it. The only way I can see this possible is if she's her own existence incapable of being anything but alive. Even nonexistence isn't a part of her existence, so she HAS to live. Everything has to be impossible except her life. Because if there's anything to work around it, even the smallest hole, she isn't really immortal. I think that just about says it all.
Only two flaws I find here... 1st: No death is canon in Touhou... 2nd: Not existing can't be a part of one's existance, because if it would be, there would be no existance we are talking about. meaning the moment it occurs, nothing counts any more. Not-existing is a rather 'violent' thing from a point, but that's why it IS effective in my opinion...
But you know what? When I acquire the power to make something nonexistant, I'll try it out on Kaguya... That could settle things, right? >:-D
I wouldn't know. All I know is Mokou can never die, and she's canonically already lived forever.
I wouldn't see why you can't make nonexistance not a part of someone's existence anymore. It's like a double negative from my point of view. Make it so they can't NOT exist anymore. Wouldn't that be good enough so they are forced to exist? In any case, I could see the Hourai Elixir doing that to Mokou and Kaguya. Kaguya has power over eternity but that doesn't mean she can exactly negate or endorse something eternal, because the very reason it's called eternal is because it's always been that way. Take Eientei for instance. Kaguya never made it eternal, she only unveiled it; it was always there. Which is exactly why it's eternal. As for the whole Mokou deal, she's effectively lived forever because she drank the medicine.
Mokou said: I wouldn't know. All I know is Mokou can never die, and she's canonically already lived forever.
Lived forever? That'd mean, that she has been around forever... But that's not the case... She is only around 1400 years old, along with Kaguya...
Mokou said:
I wouldn't see why you can't make nonexistance not a part of someone's existence anymore. It's like a double negative from my point of view. Make it so they can't NOT exist anymore. Wouldn't that be good enough so they are forced to exist?
Nonexstance can't be a part of existance... they are the counterparts of each other, making them impossible to be present at the same time.
If we take existance as the information about people (as you seem to think of it) than making someone non-existant would be the erasure of that information...
Mokou said:
In any case, I could see the Hourai Elixir doing that to Mokou and Kaguya. Kaguya has power over eternity but that doesn't mean she can exactly negate or endorse something eternal, because the very reason it's called eternal is because it's always been that way. Take Eientei for instance. Kaguya never made it eternal, she only unveiled it; it was always there. Which is exactly why it's eternal. As for the whole Mokou deal, she's effectively lived forever because she drank the medicine.
Actually, if I know it well, Kaguya's power was necessary for the Hourai Elxir's completition... (And since you are explaining her ability over eternity as imperfect, you also saying, that the Elixir itself is imperfect, so it can be [one way or the other] negated or bypassed...)
GreenDrag said: Lived forever? That'd mean, that she has been around forever... But that's not the case... She is only around 1400 years old, along with Kaguya...
She has lived for 1400 years, yes. But in her IN.txt, it says she has lived forever. Know that this is her canonical storyline, not just up to the now. Canonically, she has lived forever from 1400 years ago to eternity. I assumed you knew what I was talking about.
GreenDrag said:
Nonexstance can't be a part of existance... they are the counterparts of each other, making them impossible to be present at the same time.
If we take existance as the information about people (as you seem to think of it) than making someone non-existant would be the erasure of that information...
Of course it would be impossible for someone to exist and not exist at the same time. But I'm about the actual 'information'. If you take their entire entity and look at them if they are or are not, they either exist or do not exist. Because of that, nonexistence, too, has to be part of this information. Make it so someone doesn't exist? Sure, but it's still the person we're talking about. The actual person never disappears. It's only their state we're changing. Negate one of these, and it's impossible for them to cross over.
GreenDrag said:
Actually, if I know it well, Kaguya's power was necessary for the Hourai Elxir's completition... (And since you are explaining her ability over eternity as imperfect, you also saying, that the Elixir itself is imperfect, so it can be [one way or the other] negated or bypassed...)
Actually, there's two things wrong with that. I'll start with Kaguya. Just because she has power over eternity but can't change eternity itself doesn't mean that it's imperfect. On the contrary, it only strengthens my point. Things that are eternal can't be changed (hence why they are eternal.) Kaguya does have power over eternity, just like that example I posted earlier with Eientei. Next, Eirin and the Hourai Elixir. No, she didn't have to have Kaguya's help to make the medicine. Actually, if you've ready any of the official works closely, Kaguya didn't even know such a thing existed until Eirin told about it to her.
Eirin's memento in Cage of a Lunatic Runagate CH1 said:
That minor error was to give the Hourai Elixir, that is, the elixir of immortality and eternal youth, to Princess Kaguya. Princess Kaguya sought the Hourai Elixir out of simple, selfish curiosity. I told her that such a thing existed, and I made it for her.
If you know your Kanji correctly, Eirin's full name means "Intelligence of eternally clear brightness over infinitely extended area", referring her to be the "Mind of God". If anyone could make a flawless medicine that makes someone live forever, it would be her. Next, I'm pretty sure you'll argue with something like "well then she could make a cure". Don't give me any of that. If she truly made it the elixir of immortality, she'd make it perfect and impossible to negate, and know that there would be no cure and she'd know it.
Arguing past this point only tells me that you don't think Mokou is immortal. Are you going to try to argue with that too? Honestly, all the proof I really need is that Mokou is immortal and that's in her canonic profile. An immortal not being alive is impossible, and it only takes common sense to understand that much. If you want to play dictionary, "perpetual; lasting; constant:" is also part of the definition. If you want to go even further- "continuing or enduring forever; everlasting." is part of the definition for "perpetual". And if you played the game, "Everlasting" is one of Mokou's spellcards. Needless to say at this point, there's a connection between "everlasting" and "immortal".
Of course it would be impossible for someone to exist and not exist at the same time. But I'm about the actual 'information'. If you take their entire entity and look at them if they are or are not, they either exist or do not exist. Because of that, nonexistence, too, has to be part of this information. Make it so someone doesn't exist? Sure, but it's still the person we're talking about. The actual person never disappears. It's only their state we're changing. Negate one of these, and it's impossible for them to cross over.
You are contradicting yourself there a litle... Someone's existance isn't part of their existance, but the world's. The information of what exists is in the world, and not the person itself. As in what are the things the world contains. and even if you are alive, as long as the world does not acknowledge you as it's own part, you don't exist, meaning it so doesn't matter wether you are alive or not. You will be like trash data on a not properly formatted HD...
Mokou said:
Actually, there's two things wrong with that. I'll start with Kaguya. Just because she has power over eternity but can't change eternity itself doesn't mean that it's imperfect. On the contrary, it only strengthens my point. Things that are eternal can't be changed (hence why they are eternal.) Kaguya does have power over eternity, just like that example I posted earlier with Eientei. Next, Eirin and the Hourai Elixir. No, she didn't have to have Kaguya's help to make the medicine. Actually, if you've ready any of the official works closely, Kaguya didn't even know such a thing existed until Eirin told about it to her.
Touhou Wiki said:
The elixir of immortality was created by Eirin Yagokoro using Kaguya Houraisan's power over eternity.
Mokou said:
If you know your Kanji correctly, Eirin's full name means "Intelligence of eternally clear brightness over infinitely extended area", referring her to be the "Mind of God". If anyone could make a flawless medicine that makes someone live forever, it would be her. Next, I'm pretty sure you'll argue with something like "well then she could make a cure". Don't give me any of that. If she truly made it the elixir of immortality, she'd make it perfect and impossible to negate, and know that there would be no cure and she'd know it.
If she truly was a "mind god" then all the more reason she wouldn't make the medicine completely permanent. Human sentinence desires others to be next to it, or fade away, since Kaguya is originalyy a human, she will either lock herself away, and detorriate from loneliness, or suffer the pain of loss over and over again, which in either case is a pretty bad end. And for that Eirin probably knows a way to negate the elixir, allowing her princess to rest in peace after eons or so... But that's not gonna happen in the near future. Oh, and on a sidenote, there is always the unpredictable variant of unknown in everything, meaning something not yet known to you might disturb your calculations.
Mokou said:
Arguing past this point only tells me that you don't think Mokou is immortal. Are you going to try to argue with that too? Honestly, all the proof I really need is that Mokou is immortal and that's in her canonic profile. An immortal not being alive is impossible, and it only takes common sense to understand that much. If you want to play dictionary, "perpetual; lasting; constant:" is also part of the definition. If you want to go even further- "continuing or enduring forever; everlasting." is part of the definition for "perpetual". And if you played the game, "Everlasting" is one of Mokou's spellcards. Needless to say at this point, there's a connection between "everlasting" and "immortal".
Actually, I1ve noticed, that this argueing has turned into the battlefield of two different beliefs, which, however will hardly change just from this. While you continously state, that immortal and eternal are not changeable, you also state, that you belive, that perfection and absolulte can be achieved. I on the contray belive, that nothing can achieve perfection, nor can anything be absolulte. Meanibng that though Mokou (and Kaguya too) are immortal, they can be killed at least one way, or if that is not possible, completely erase them. This from my point of view is a strong point, while from yours, it is nearly nothing. Since you think they have attained absolulte imoortality, in which I do not belive. do you get it why I said that we will be running laps that have been ran many times before?
Well anyway, we can leave it at that, that we think differently...
You are contradicting yourself there a litle... Someone's existance isn't part of their existance, but the world's. The information of what exists is in the world, and not the person itself. As in what are the things the world contains. and even if you are alive, as long as the world does not acknowledge you as it's own part, you don't exist, meaning it so doesn't matter wether you are alive or not.
Are you sure I'm the one contradicting myself here?
Someone's existance isn't part of their existance
I can safely say that someone's existence IS in fact, a part of their existence. Just because the world happens to partake on it, or rather, it happens to partake in the world, doesn't mean that if the world rejects it that it doesn't exist. It could become its own entity. But that's beside the point. The beauty of the Hourai Elixir is that it makes the drinker loose the ability to not be a part of the world anymore. Or simply put, they can't die. Even if the world were to be destroyed, they still can't die. In this case, Mokou- who will live through anything.
GreenDrag said:
If she truly was a "mind god" then all the more reason she wouldn't make the medicine completely permanent. Human sentinence desires others to be next to it, or fade away, since Kaguya is originalyy a human, she will either lock herself away, and detorriate from loneliness, or suffer the pain of loss over and over again, which in either case is a pretty bad end. And for that Eirin probably knows a way to negate the elixir, allowing her princess to rest in peace after eons or so... But that's not gonna happen in the near future.
You do have a point in Eirin being able to foresee this happening. But it just so happens, Kaguya isn't unhappy with her eternal life at all. This simple "selfish curiosity" that Eirin satisfied by giving Kaguya this Hourai Elixir left Kaguya on Earth, where she will be with the humans until their end. Kaguya didn't like her life on the moon, but rather came to love the humans on Earth, if you've read Kaguya-hime. Eirin may have regretted making it, and she may have been omniscient and foreseen that happening, but that doesn't mean that she wasn't tempted to making it for Kaguya by herself anyway at the time. She's not a god, but an omniscient lunarian. She could have been subject to temptation, or didn't really think much of the matter of the time. All we know is Eirin did, in fact, make it perfect. Otherwise, it wouldn't have been called the "elixir of immortality". She made it very clear.
GreenDrag said:
I on the contray belive, that nothing can achieve perfection, nor can anything be absolulte. Meanibng that though Mokou (and Kaguya too) are immortal, they can be killed at least one way, or if that is not possible, completely erase them.
See, this is the problem you have. You actually DON'T believe they're immortal. You say you do, yet you think at the same time that they can die, be erased, or whatever you want to put it. That by itself is contradictory.
Immortality means that it isn't liable or subject to death. At the same time, it also means everlasting. The biggest problem you, and many other people have, is the abuse of the word 'immortal', and replacing it with something "really really hard to kill" or "can die, but not by ordinary means". The true definition is "it can't die at all". This type was implied many times in the canonical works. And this is fiction, by the way, so things that don't happen in the real world are allowed to happen here.
But just as a side note, there are things made absolute in the real world every day. It's called time, and everything that already happened, happened, and it's absolute. Though it wasn't absolute before it happened in the past before the event, it did actually happen for us to know about it now.
GreenDrag and Mokou. You guys are arguing what would happen when an immovable object meets an unstoppable force (i.e. something that doesn't have an end meets the end to all things). The picture is about Kazami Yuuka's decapitated head. If you want to argue this, either take it to the forums or start messaging each other from now on.
On topic I think this picture is quite disturbing, so I shall now go to the Yuuka pictures in the Disgustingly Adorable pool. Thank you.
I came here to look at a picture and all I can see is lines and lines of text about... I forgot This is weird. And that person who did it is probably too powerful. Gap calls.
1.Tohno Shiki's pussy Eyes can't take Yuuka-chan nor Mokou-chan.. You'd need God-Hax Ryougi-chan to do that...
2.Is Gensokyo under the concept of Gaia?if not...Shiki=Rapedly Screwed to Epic Proportions...
played both..and is-and always will be-a Ryougi Shiki Fan- Wanker....but unless they are under Gaia, then Touhou Deities would WIPE TYPE-MOON CLEAN LOL
ontopic: ACTUALLY..im kinda expecting this:
Reimu-chan:I..I DID IT..i KILLED HER Yuuka-chan:Nice Try....REimu Reimu-chan:OMG WHAT? Yuuka-chan:*Head Regenerates with own body,Body regenerates with own head*...*Whips out a Spell Card* Reimu-chan:OH SH** Yuuka-chan1:Do you know what happens now? Yuuka-chan2:Reimu? Both Yuuka-chan:*DUAL SPARK* ^_^
Just to mention... in a certain bad end, Shiki kills Ciel. Ciel, for the most part, was in the same situation as Mokou.
Surprised no one has yet to mention Ryougi Shiki. She's like Tohno Shiki, but better, and simply recreate reality and make it so that Mokou never drank the hourai elixir.
z2000 said: Just to mention... in a certain bad end, Shiki kills Ciel. Ciel, for the most part, was in the same situation as Mokou.
Surprised no one has yet to mention Ryougi Shiki. She's like Tohno Shiki, but better, and simply recreate reality and make it so that Mokou never drank the hourai elixir.
This isn't Type-Moon. This is the Touhou Universe, stay on the subject.
Furthermore, it's already stated Mokou is, in fact, completely immortal. Recreate the universe as you wish, but the Mokou that drank the elixir already will not go away. The new Mokou who hasn't drank it yet may die, but the Mokou that drank the elixir will live through the recreation.
Asagami said: *Face meets Palm* you guys could've ended this arguement in 1 sentence,Not Yuuka-chan vs Tohno-san,but Mokou-chan/Kaguya-chan vs Tohno-san... How?
Mystic Eyes of Death-Tohno's- are a pussy and can't kill aliens ^_^....includes HOURAI ELIXIR,a MOON-MADE ITEM... That should be enough for yah :D
Nothing can kill them. Neither Tohno's nor Shiki's. It's completely impossible. Just pointing that out.
YOU FOOLS!!!!...sorry There only 6 possible reasons! - Magic - Eirin's new drug - Yukari is fooling around again - Moriya shrine conspirasy - Yuuka is taking it easy - or this one artist called depth_bomb drew it,but that's highly unlikely. lolXD
... who did this!? i will find the culprit and cut him or her so much so the blood rushes out every laceration on their body. then i shall decapitate their body piece by piece with a rusty SPOON!!! they will feel the pain!!!! i loved yuuka!!!! i will rush across gensokyo leaving only a bloody path behind me, my rage will be feared!!!!
Cope
angrybull said:
Gensokyo's not big enough for two Yuukas. Which means that Yukari will probably gap one of them over to the real world. We are so fucked.