I still can't believe zun gave us a masochist lesbian stalker. It was so surprising that people thought it was a mistranslation but no she's actually extremely down bad for her boss.
I still can't believe zun gave us a masochist lesbian stalker. It was so surprising that people thought it was a mistranslation but no she's actually extremely down bad for her boss.
It is mistranslation. Hisami's just a masochist and likes to be scolded.
Her lore specifically states that she likes/adores zanmu, her lines in the story even tell that she does.
You can adore someone platonically, and her profile on the wiki has since been changed from saying she's "one-sidedly head over heels" to just saying she has a one-sided adoration, with an explanation why in the revision history.
You can adore someone platonically, and her profile on the wiki has since been changed from saying she's "head over heels" to just saying she has a one-sided adoration, with an explanation why in the revision history.
A one sided crush is still a crush. I Never implied zanmu reciprocated
Ah yes the platonic desire to want your boss to scold you and ruining your bosses plans just so she pays attention to you.
Ah yes, that Japanese term used specifically for platonic admiration, not romantic love, in a series with literally zero canon homosexual relationships or characters.
Ah yes, that Japanese term used specifically for platonic admiration, not romantic love, in a series with literally zero canon homosexual relationships or characters.
This is the internet, so I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not - and sorry if I got it wrong - but while it is pefectly sensible to interpret the use of the term as platonic, a quick check of a Japanese dictionary suggests that it has plausible romantic or sexual connotations. One of the example sentences is for instance about "a male cat yearning for a female cat," which I think has rather obvious implications on the use of the verb.
Also, Reimu has been canonically into women literally from the second game.
This is the internet, so I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not - and sorry if I got it wrong - but while it is pefectly sensible to interpret the use of the term as platonic, a quick check of a Japanese dictionary suggests that it has plausible romantic or sexual connotations. One of the example sentences is for instance about "a male cat yearning for a female cat," which I think has rather obvious implications on the use of the verb.
Also, Reimu has been canonically into women literally from the second game.
It can rarely be used romantically, but typically is not. It's an odd leap for a man who has avoided romance of any kind in his series to now use a term more commonly meant platonically in its rarer romantic context.
And no, Reimu is not canonically into women. Reimu only listened to half the things Meira said, the clarification that she was a woman not being one of them. Reimu only acknowledged that Meira was a woman after beating her, and immediately wanted to bury her thinking she was dead. Reimu mistaking Meira for a man is just as valid an interpretation as Reimu just not caring either way. PC-98 is dubiously canon at best, anyway.
It can rarely be used romantically, but typically is not. It's an odd leap for a man who has avoided romance of any kind in his series to now use a term more commonly meant platonically in its rarer romantic context.
And no, Reimu is not canonically into women. Reimu only listened to half the things Meira said, the clarification that she was a woman not being one of them. Reimu only acknowledged that Meira was a woman after beating her, and immediately wanted to bury her thinking she was dead. Reimu mistaking Meira for a man is just as valid an interpretation as Reimu just not caring either way. PC-98 is dubiously canon at best, anyway.
I don't exactly have usage statistics on hand, but neither do you, I notice, so forgive me if I don't take it as a given that the romantic connotations are unlikely.
At any rate, the only other plausible sense the verb could be used in here is that of "admiration for a superior," which seems to make sense at first glance given that, yes, Zanmu is Hisami's superior... but Hisami's profile specifically notes that her 慕う is one-sided, which seems like an unnatural thing to note in that case - "admiration for a superior" is hardly an emotion that your boss can have for you. And also, that could easily still be understood to (potentially) have a romantic component, especially considering Hisami's behaviour re: Zanmu in general and the notable fact that the dictionary I'm looking at (if you want to have a look) uses a verb potentially meaning "to be attracted to" to define that admiration, rather than one more straight-forwardly platonic.
"ZUN wouldn't do this" does not logically follow from "ZUN hasn't done this before." ZUN has also not had a character who was a yomotsu-shikome before. Or referenced Genjii in Windows canon before. Both of those examples happened this game. I don't see any reason to think that he couldn't have on some whim decided to have a character who is explicitly in love with another now.
The assertion that Hisami is definitively not in love with her boss is simply not supportable. It's plausible as an interpretation. But not as a definitive, categorical statement.
I literally do not care about this ship. I'm annoyed by insufficiently-founded accusations of mistranslation and assertions of one's personal interpretation as defintive fact in order to shut down conflicting interpretations. That, to me, is supremely insufferable.
I have said just about all I have to say, so unless you have any other insulting dismissals and assumptions about my motivations, that'll be all, thank you, bye.
Ah, one wiki edit by one person. That’s all it was? 慕う 1. to yearn for; to long for; to pine for; to miss; to love dearly; to adore 2. to follow (someone) 3. to idolize (for virtue, learning, status, etc.) (残無のことを一方的に慕っている) is the whole phrase.
Perhaps the first translation was a bit literal, yes, but bringing in “platonic”, an English language phrase and concept, and then getting into lexical semantics over it is also incorrect IMO. So while you can argue for the fact that it may not be explicitly romantic, you need to read between the lines…. Imagine a character that’s a stalker who begs to be scolded but it’s all platonic, lol.
At any rate, the only other plausible sense the verb could be used in here is that of "admiration for a superior," which seems to make sense at first glance given that, yes, Zanmu is Hisami's superior... but Hisami's profile specifically notes that her 慕う is one-sided, which seems like an unnatural thing to note in that case - "admiration for a superior" is hardly an emotion that your boss can have for you. And also, that could easily still be understood to (potentially) have a romantic component, especially considering Hisami's behaviour re: Zanmu in general and the notable fact that the dictionary I'm looking at (if you want to have a look) uses a verb potentially meaning "to be attracted to" to define that admiration, rather than one more straight-forwardly platonic.
You're defining "one-sided" too literally. Obviously Zanmu can't literally reciprocate Hisami's feelings of "admiration for a superior", but reciprocation doesn't have to mean 1-1 identical feelings. It could also mean that Zanmu simply has no strong feelings towards Hisami at all, and sees her as nothing more than a subordinate to give orders to, and it would make sense that she feels that way when Hisami is apparently prone to messing up her plans, intentional or not. This is in stark contrast to characters like Hecatia, Ran, or Megumu, who are all shown and stated to be very protective and caring towards their subordinates.
"ZUN wouldn't do this" does not logically follow from "ZUN hasn't done this before." ZUN has also not had a character who was a yomotsu-shikome before. Or referenced Genjii in Windows canon before. Both of those examples happened this game. I don't see any reason to think that he couldn't have on some whim decided to have a character who is explicitly in love with another now.
Neither of those first two statements support the final one. They are vastly different in relevance. "ZUN has never had Reimu drink milk before, but he just did it, so there's no reason he couldn't have her and Marisa kiss in the next game." Doing something never done before does not automatically open the door for also doing literally anything else never done before. It's a bit ironic to claim a lack of logical connection between two points only to present multiple points with no logical connection.
The assertion that Hisami is definitively not in love with her boss is simply not supportable. It's plausible as an interpretation. But not as a definitive, categorical statement.
That goes both ways. Lots of people are claiming she's definitively in love with her boss.
chubbelly said:
Perhaps the first translation was a bit literal, yes, but bringing in “platonic”, an English language phrase and concept, and then getting into lexical semantics over it is also incorrect IMO.
Are you actually suggesting that the distinction between platonic and romantic feelings towards other people is one that only exists in English? Japanese people know what platonic love is, you know. That would be why they have numerous nuanced phrases for describing very specific types of affection, ranging from romantic, to familial, to friendship, to lustful.
Her lore specifically states that she likes/adores zanmu, her lines in the story even tell that she does.
And that doesn’t imply romance, as there are several other plausible explanations.
iori98 said:
A one sided crush is still a crush. I Never implied zanmu reciprocated
You misinterpreted blindVigil’s argument. He brought up the edit not to argue “its one-sided”, he brought it up to show that the romantic implications were changed and then explained to be an error. Very close to strawmanning, might I add.
iori98 said:
Ah yes the platonic desire to want your boss to scold you and ruining your bosses plans just so she pays attention to you.
Ah yes, because anyone who has ever craved attention from someone else never did so out of a place of admiration, warning, fear, honour, or for the sake of attention itself. It was ALL done romantically.
CrookedMouth said:
but while it is pefectly sensible to interpret the use of the term as platonic, a quick check of a Japanese dictionary suggests that it has plausible romantic or sexual connotations. One of the example sentences is for instance about "a male cat yearning for a female cat," which I think has rather obvious implications on the use of the verb.
Which doesn’t counter his argument in any way. Firstly, he specified that the wiki entry was edited to show that the romantic connotations you brought up were ruled out. Secondly, you used an example of the term’s usage associated with said connotation that doesn’t rule out the platonic usage of the term.
CrookedMouth said:
Also, Reimu has been canonically into women literally from the second game.
If we’re being semantic, Reimu is bisexual rather than homosexual, as she’s shown interest in both sexes. So blindVigil’s assertion is correct.
CrookedMouth said:
I don't exactly have usage statistics on hand, but neither do you, I notice, so forgive me if I don't take it as a given that the romantic connotations are unlikely.
At any rate, the only other plausible sense the verb could be used in here is that of "admiration for a superior," which seems to make sense at first glance given that, yes, Zanmu is Hisami's superior... but Hisami's profile specifically notes that her 慕う is one-sided, which seems like an unnatural thing to note in that case - "admiration for a superior" is hardly an emotion that your boss can have for you. And also, that could easily still be understood to (potentially) have a romantic component, especially considering Hisami's behaviour re: Zanmu in general and the notable fact that the dictionary I'm looking at (if you want to have a look) uses a verb potentially meaning "to be attracted to" to define that admiration, rather than one more straight-forwardly platonic.
Firstly, you’re constantly relying on a single piece of information to prove you right, while admitting that you don’t have concrete data and going off of the connotations of said singular piece of information. Hell, you even conceded that piece by admitting your own bias towards it. Hilarious.
Secondly, as brought up by chubbelly, it doesn’t just mean “admiration of superiors”, so the source you’re using is flawed. Shocking, I know.
Cholesterolicon said:
til shippers are insufferable
Confirmation bias is a hell of a thing.
CrookedMouth said:
I literally do not care about this ship. I'm annoyed by insufficiently-founded accusations of mistranslation and assertions of one's personal interpretation as defintive fact in order to shut down conflicting interpretations. That, to me, is supremely insufferable.
Oh, the sheer lack of self-awareness and hypocrisy.
CrookedMouth said:
I have said just about all I have to say, so unless you have any other insulting dismissals and assumptions about my motivations, that'll be all, thank you, bye.
Okay, let's just run through this quickly. The parts that are worth addressing, at any rate, since a lot of it is along the same lines as I was asserting - that both interpretations are viable.
LOTR3 said: Which doesn’t counter his argument in any way. Firstly, he specified that the wiki entry was edited to show that the romantic connotations you brought up were ruled out. Secondly, you used an example of the term’s usage associated with said connotation that doesn’t rule out the platonic usage of the term.
The statement I took issue with was that they asserted that the verb specifically and only had a platonic meaning. I demonstrated that that was wrong. There you go. And, for good measure, even though it's not connected to my argument in any way, the wiki is hardly has the authority to "rule out" anything. An editor claimed that per their subjective experience the romantic use of the word was too uncommon to be judged a plausible interpretation, which not only does not rule out, but outright admits the validity of the other interpretation and only refuses it based on anecdotal evidence.
Nothing you've asserted here has any relevance to anything I said.
LOTR3 said:
Firstly, you’re constantly relying on a single piece of information to prove you right, while admitting that you don’t have concrete data and going off of the connotations of said singular piece of information. Hell, you even conceded that piece by admitting your own bias towards it. Hilarious.
Secondly, as brought up by chubbelly, it doesn’t just mean “admiration of superiors”, so the source you’re using is flawed. Shocking, I know.
I am looking at a dictionary. A device used for communicating the meaning of words. In the language that we are arguing interpretations of. That is hardly an insignificant source, especially compared to your... what, exactly? I admit I may have phrased that badly, but my assertion was that, of the three definitions of 慕う (1: 恋しく思う 2: 離れがたく思ってあとを追う 3: 目上の人の人格・識見などにひかれる, meaning roughly "thoughts of yearning or love," "thoughts of pursuing something out of reach," and "attraction to the character of a superior" which the editor on the Touhou wiki, and following them blindVigil, has asserted is a platonic "admiration"), if we eliminate the first two and focus on the third, the romantic reading is still plausible. Not, as you seem to have somehow misunderstood me, that the third definition was the only one. I also don't know that you understand fully what bias is? At any rate I certainly don't understand what you mean by it.
Once again, you have not managed to say anything of relevance to my stance.
LOTR3 said:
Confirmation bias is a hell of a thing.
Oh, the sheer lack of self-awareness and hypocrisy.
We accept your concession.
Look in a mirror.
blindVigil said:
Neither of those first two statements support the final one. They are vastly different in relevance. "ZUN has never had Reimu drink milk before, but he just did it, so there's no reason he couldn't have her and Marisa kiss in the next game." Doing something never done before does not automatically open the door for also doing literally anything else never done before. It's a bit ironic to claim a lack of logical connection between two points only to present multiple points with no logical connection.
That goes both ways. Lots of people are claiming she's definitively in love with her boss.
The first bit of your comment I'll grant you is correct and that I took perhaps too strong a stance, although since it doesn't actually contradict me, only show that the platonic interpretation is also viable which I did not intend to deny, I'm not sure what you're arguing against.
These two parts rankle, however.
"The future will be like the past because in the past the future was like the past" is circular logic and does not hold up (even if it is true more often than not. The sun rises every morning). That's all that I meant to say. You're reading too much into the examples I gave that demonstrate that. ZUN may at any point decide to do something not in keeping with his past decisions, so the fact that he hasn't done something until now cannot be used as evidence that he isn't doing it now or won't do it ever. Those were examples of him doing that (in itself, I realise belatedly, also the "the future will resemble the past" fallacy), not evidence to support that Hisami is in love with Zanmu.
That other people are asserting the opposite incorrect stance is true! However we are not talking about that. We are talking about you and the unsupportable insistence against that the platonic interpretation was the only viable interpretation of 慕う that you took at the beginning of this argument. This is mere whataboutism
... One last thing I will note, and which I can't believe I missed until now. The dictionary that I am referencing from lists 恋う, "to love" (with strong implications of romance but not definitive, although only to about the same degree that saying you love candy doesn't mean you want to romance it, while saying you love a person generally does), as a near-synonym of 慕う. Do with that as you will.
Anyway, I can't help but feel that, while it did not start that way, somewhere in the argument a good chunk of it ended up turning out like that one Fallout 3 greentext. "Owing to this overwhelming consensus, we were obliged to fight a massive war." I'll admit partial responsibility for that, I get a little heated sometimes.
If nothing else, I just hope this doesn't impede any creative freedom, in Touhou no less. You know how things are when it get this heated.
Agree to disagree, but if translators keep up with their newfound "creative freedom" like this, we're going to get bigger and bigger shitstorms when they keep feeding the shippers and inserting their fanfic into canon
this is why we gatekeep. Edit really quick, this is why.
While it's only a few people, there is a coordinated effort to spread this as fact, including intentionally taking it out of context and intentionally mistranslating it. Shippers are the worst.
this is why we gatekeep. Edit really quick, this is why.
While it's only a few people, there is a coordinated effort to spread this as fact, including intentionally taking it out of context and intentionally mistranslating it. Shippers are the worst.
It's so disgusting that these shippers are the ones who first to translate and first to spread their agenda. Meanwhile the good, actual, translation is going to come out after these deplorable shippers have already imprinted their fanon into everyone they could find, not like they even play the game. Oh well, it's not like a fandom should ever give a shit about canon, lol.
I dunno how you can see a character who is stated to have a one side adoration for another character, who also repeatedly expresses a desire for said character to scold them to the point of attempting to sabotage their plans to get them to do so, and see no potential romantic implications.
Okay, let's just run through this quickly. The parts that are worth addressing, at any rate, since a lot of it is along the same lines as I was asserting - that both interpretations are viable.
The statement I took issue with was that they asserted that the verb specifically and only had a platonic meaning. I demonstrated that that was wrong. There you go. And, for good measure, even though it's not connected to my argument in any way, the wiki is hardly has the authority to "rule out" anything. An editor claimed that per their subjective experience the romantic use of the word was too uncommon to be judged a plausible interpretation, which not only does not rule out, but outright admits the validity of the other interpretation and only refuses it based on anecdotal evidence.
Nothing you've asserted here has any relevance to anything I said.
I am looking at a dictionary. A device used for communicating the meaning of words. In the language that we are arguing interpretations of. That is hardly an insignificant source, especially compared to your... what, exactly? I admit I may have phrased that badly, but my assertion was that, of the three definitions of 慕う (1: 恋しく思う 2: 離れがたく思ってあとを追う 3: 目上の人の人格・識見などにひかれる, meaning roughly "thoughts of yearning or love," "thoughts of pursuing something out of reach," and "attraction to the character of a superior" which the editor on the Touhou wiki, and following them blindVigil, has asserted is a platonic "admiration"), if we eliminate the first two and focus on the third, the romantic reading is still plausible. Not, as you seem to have somehow misunderstood me, that the third definition was the only one. I also don't know that you understand fully what bias is? At any rate I certainly don't understand what you mean by it.
Once again, you have not managed to say anything of relevance to my stance.
Look in a mirror.
The first bit of your comment I'll grant you is correct and that I took perhaps too strong a stance, although since it doesn't actually contradict me, only show that the platonic interpretation is also viable which I did not intend to deny, I'm not sure what you're arguing against.
These two parts rankle, however.
"The future will be like the past because in the past the future was like the past" is circular logic and does not hold up (even if it is true more often than not. The sun rises every morning). That's all that I meant to say. You're reading too much into the examples I gave that demonstrate that. ZUN may at any point decide to do something not in keeping with his past decisions, so the fact that he hasn't done something until now cannot be used as evidence that he isn't doing it now or won't do it ever. Those were examples of him doing that (in itself, I realise belatedly, also the "the future will resemble the past" fallacy), not evidence to support that Hisami is in love with Zanmu.
That other people are asserting the opposite incorrect stance is true! However we are not talking about that. We are talking about you and the unsupportable insistence against that the platonic interpretation was the only viable interpretation of 慕う that you took at the beginning of this argument. This is mere whataboutism
... One last thing I will note, and which I can't believe I missed until now. The dictionary that I am referencing from lists 恋う, "to love" (with strong implications of romance but not definitive, although only to about the same degree that saying you love candy doesn't mean you want to romance it, while saying you love a person generally does), as a near-synonym of 慕う. Do with that as you will.
Anyway, I can't help but feel that, while it did not start that way, somewhere in the argument a good chunk of it ended up turning out like that one Fallout 3 greentext. "Owing to this overwhelming consensus, we were obliged to fight a massive war." I'll admit partial responsibility for that, I get a little heated sometimes.
You keep wanking yourself to that singular dictionary definition and reverse Appeal to Tradition while criticising everyone for your own actions under the veneer of self-awareness. You’re 100% correct about that green text comparison, your argument is one long, painfully unfunny joke.
You keep wanking yourself to that singular dictionary definition and reverse Appeal to Tradition while criticising everyone for your own actions under the veneer of self-awareness. You’re 100% correct about that green text comparison, your argument is one long, painfully unfunny joke.
"New and different things can happen" is hardly an Appeal to Novelty. If you wanted to accuse me of a well-known fallacy to hide the shallowness of the argument you have so far put forth, Improper Appeal to Authority would be the more appropriate one. Except, of course, that a dictionary is a proper authority and you know it.
But fine, "singular dictionary definition?" Here's another one. Notice, among the synonyms, various verbs like 愛する ("to love") and 恋する ("to fall in love.") Alongside, you'll note, a variety of platonic synonyms that I do not deny the existence of because, unlike you seem to think, my victory condition for this argument is not dominance but doubt. As long as the love interpretation is a plausible translation (and it is) then I win. It doesn't need to be the only one. It doesn't even have to be the most likely one. It only has to be plausible that the original translation was not actually a mistranslation, and that blindVigil's initial assertion that I took issue with was wrong.
But okay, you don't think dictionaries are valuable resources for learning how a word is used?
Here's a variety of manga with the same kanji in the name. Why not count the number of romances? Of course, that's not necessarily an undefeatable argument - after all, sharing a kanji only indicates at best a similarity in meaning. We'd need the exact same verb to really demonstrate it. So here's one manga I found with the exact same verb in the name. The Oni [Yearns for/Loves/Adores/Admires/etc] the Curse God. Romance. Here's another. Roughly I [Yearn for/Love/Adore/Admire] You with a highly formal tone. Romance. Here's another one. Something like The Errand-Running Young Master and the [Yearning/Smitten/Adoring/Admiring/etc] Maid]. Guess what it is. And there are probably others that I missed that use the verb in platonic sense, but again - that doesn't actually refute my argument. Are you really going to assert that the use of the verb in these titles is intended to be understood as platonic?
Now then. Your turn, if you please. Explain your argument. Support and validate the stance that the platonic interpretation of 慕う is the definitive and only true translation. Do not focus on refuting my points - you haven't done a very good job of understanding and rejecting them so far. Make your own argument. Explain why you believe what you do. I'd like to hear it! It has a far better chance of being convincing than what you've done so far.
Me enjoying yuri artworks while two sides are debating canonity is a sight to behold
Thread filled with ppl obessed with lesbian porn getting mad that theres a possibly canon lesbian in their fav game everyone here loves lesbians till the lesbians show up it seems.
Why are people who hate shipping always so damn toxic? So much vitriol over some people being excited over possible canon yuri? I mean, it's not hard to see how her feelings could be interpreted as romantic even if they don't turn out to be like that. Shipping culture is toxic but anti shipping culture is way worse.
Why are people who hate shipping always so damn toxic? So much vitriol over some people being excited over possible canon yuri? I mean, it's not hard to see how her feelings could be interpreted as romantic even if they don't turn out to be like that. Shipping culture is toxic but anti shipping culture is way worse.
I'm a ReiSana person myself. Everyone is gay in Fanon and I'm here for it, but I understand that it's not canon and it never will be canon. It's perfectly normal to be wary of people who might want to change your hobby instead of joining it. It starts with excitement over a possibility, then it quickly derails into pressuring/bullying authors into making it canon. Thankfully Western fans have very little influence on how things go regardless.