Tag Definitions: satchel, messenger bag, school_bag

This is more or less a continuation of what started in forum #16424, but I've kind of expanded beyond just the school_bag tag.

In the attempt to define school_bag, I've found that it is necessary that we need to define/redefine satchel, shoulder_bag, and messenger_bag.

First off are the easy ones.
I'd like to define shoulder_bag as "a bag that lacks handles and is intended to be carried with a single shoulder strap."
Following that, messenger_bag should be defined as something like "a type of shoulder bag with a shoulder strap that is worn across the body and has a large flap."
Neither of these definitions will really impact the current image population tagged with these tags. Though the definitions would suggest a messenger_bag -> shoulder_bag implication.

The hard one is satchel. There are currently 140 images tagged with this tag, but there are several problems with this tag. The images depicted completely overlap with the images tagged school_bag, the definition itself leads this tag to overlap with school_bag, and finally the images tagged satchel don't really follow any real definition of satchel that I could find.

I'd like to redefine this tag with a Frankenstein's monster of a definition composed from several handbag glossaries and a luggage glossary. The new definition I'd like to give it is "a soft flat bottomed bag with two handles or straps and a zipper or clasp opening at the top."

The disadvantage of this new definition is it will require the complete gutting of the tag, as right now there is probably not a single image under the tag that would go by this definition. On the other hand, the advantages are it does away with overlap with school_bag, gives it a specific definition, and gives a tag to the newer style of school bags being used (ex: post #406930, post #189816, post #405677).

Finally this all leads up to how to define the school_bag tag. As it currently stands, this tag is predominately used on images depicting the older style of book bag used by middle and high school students, which I believe is best described as a flap over briefcase. This tag though has also been used to tag a variety of other school bags, the most common of which would fall under the new definition of satchel and randoseru.

While I do believe the "flap over briefcase" style of school_bags could deserve its own tag, I believe more that the school_bag tag should be broadened out in definition to include the other style of bags (ie new satchel, shoulder_bag, and messenger_bag). There are right now 21 pages of images under school_uniform bag -school_bag, many of which are non-briefcase styles of bags used by students. So pretty much I think school_bag should be defined to be any book bag used by Japanese middle and high school students.

If we're to give the flap over briefcase style school bag its own tag, I think something like traditional_school_bag or something would work better than hogging the more general sounding school_bag tag.

why not school_satchel for ones that are leather based, and school_bag for ones that are cloth and polyester? (by appearance)

With shoulder_bag, some of the images are purses. So what makes it so distinctive besides a strap?

Although a lot of the work here depicts Japanese students, that style of bag isn't exclusive to them.

I'd rather not use satchel, because I haven't found a definition for satchel that follows the current use. Out of around 8 or so glossaries I found online, 5-6 of them followed at some level the definition I've proposed, while the other 2 didn't but they also clearly did not match the current usage either. The Oxford Dictionary's definition defined it as a shoulder bag with a long shoulder strap, does not match the current usage. American Heritage Dictionary defined it as a small bag usually with a shoulder strap, does not match the current usage. Wordnet defines it as a small case with a flat bottom (usually) with a strap, again does not match the current usage. Merriam-Webster's Dictionary defined it as a small bag often with a shoulder strap, again does not match the current definition. Wikipedia's incredibly weak definition again defines it as a bag with 1 or 2 shoulder straps that go across the body, and once again it does not match the current usage. Only about 16 images actually follow the dictionary definitions out of 140 images, which is exactly why I think it needs to be redefined.

shoulder_bag is a more general type of tag, so yes there would be purses that would fall under it, but likewise there are purses that do not have shoulder straps. There are also bags that people would clearly not tag purse that would fall under the definition of should bag. In general this tag should be used for all types of bags which have a shoulder strap, but lack other means of carrying it beyond holding it under your arm. There are purses and such that lack shoulder straps and any other form of handle/strap, and are intended to be carried underarm or by hand.

By and large I agree with NWF Renim on these definitions, though some of those rectangular blue "shoulder_bags" look large enough to be dufflebags in my mind.

I have two leather "flap over" bags similar to some Japanese school satchels that were used for carrying music books. Neither are a briefcase by any stretch and neither had a shoulder strap. Satchel is the word that immediately comes to mind when I think of them.
I have, somewhere, a canvas "messenger bag" as defined by the manufacturer (Mythwear, I think it was their larger "messenger+" style or something) which was large had a flap and a shoulder strap. I also have a "book bag" as defined by Fred Gallagher (Megatoyo) which is smaller but also with a flap and shoulder strap.
I also had something similar (flap and shoulder strap) years ago that was referred to by my friends as a "DJ bag", being the correct size to hold LPs (although I would never put anything as delicate in something so flimsy).

I don't really have an opinion on the matter but there's a lot of words in this thread so I'm going to remind those of you who are invested whatever the decision is to write wiki pages with clear-cut examples linked to posts. I would be hesitant to tag anything with any of the tags without knowing what each was, personally.

wanchan said:
stuff

I won't deny that there will always be overlap with the namings of things like this, especially when dictionary, conventional, and fashion definitions end up differing from each other most of the time. Even so, in this case the dictionary and the fashion definitions all refer to satchel as something besides what we're currently using it for (something of which we all have mixed opinions of).

In general though we do need to create some basic types of bag tags. Certainly there are a lot of different kinds of bags. Going beyond things like plastic and paper bags, there are also basic styles of bags. "shoulder_bag" would be a basic style of bag, just like backpack. Backpacks come in plenty of different shapes and sizes, but we all recognize them as a backpack. So part of this is establishing tags for the basic styles of bags that exist and are in use.

Things like "book bag", "school bag", "computer bag" generally don't fully describe the style of the bag, so much as the purpose of the bag. There are many styles of bags that can all be used for the same purpose. More or less a purpose tag combined with a style tag is really the only way to go to be accurate, and get rid of any kind of confusion with tags like "school bag" which is predominately used by one style of bag.

On the arguments against them being a briefcase, I'd like to say I thought I knew what a "briefcase" was, but lets take a look at the definitions:
Oxford Dictionary 2nd Ed: a leather or plastic rectangular container with a handle for carrying books and documents.
Concise Oxford Dictionary: a rectangular case with a handle for carrying books and documents.
Compact Oxford Dictionary: a flat rectangular case for carrying books and documents.
Merriam-Webster Dictionary: a flat flexible case for carrying papers or books.
American Heritage Dictionary: A portable, often flat case with a handle, used for carrying papers or books.
WordNet 3.0: a case with a handle; for carrying papers or files or books
MSN Encarta: small case for carrying papers: a small rectangular case with a handle, used for carrying books and papers
In general what you're calling a "satchel" seems to fit the definition of briefcase pretty well.

Attaché case though generally falls with similar definitions, but there are a few that make it fall in line with what others have been saying about what briefcase should be.
Oxford Dictionary 2nd Ed: a small, flat, rigid, rectangular case used for carrying documents.
Concise Oxford Dictionary: a small, flat briefcase for carrying documents.
Compact Oxford Dictionary: a small, flat briefcase for carrying documents.
Merriam-Webster Dictionary: a small thin suitcase used especially for carrying business papers
American Heritage Dictionary: A slim briefcase with flat, rigid sides, hinges, and usually a lock.
WordNet 3.0: a shallow and rectangular briefcase
MSN Encarta: slender rigid briefcase: a hard flat rectangular briefcase used for carrying business documents.

Bumping up.

So has anyone thought of what should go to this tag? And the definition?

I personally don't like see the leather bags, mixed with randoseru, those little pouch bags, and the blue bags. I liked searching the tag for the specific 'brown and black' flap over bag aka satchel.