Posted under Tags
BUR #7307 has been rejected.
create alias nose_hatchet -> billhook
Saw the wiki for billhook, which said it's not to be confused with a nose hatchet. Only search engine results i can get are multitools containing both a hatchet and a needle nose plier, the supposed tool doesn't come up at all.
If someone can show me where to buy Ryuuguu Rena's so-called "nose hatchet" please enlighten me. Otherwise, please change the tag
Did you try searching for the tool's Japanese name? I don't believe there is an English-language equivalent to 嘴付き鉈. Obviously you're going to have trouble finding it in search engines when there isn't a commonplace translation.
(Whether the different tools are distinct enough to bother tagging them separately is another matter entirely.)
iridescent_slime said:
Did you try searching for the tool's Japanese name? I don't believe there is an English-language equivalent to 嘴付き鉈. Obviously you're going to have trouble finding it in search engines when there isn't a commonplace translation.
(Whether the different tools are distinct enough to bother tagging them separately is another matter entirely.)
Seems "nose hatchet" is a clunky translation of the Japanese term you gave. Probably independently invented in Japan and Europe, it's merely an agricultural/forestry implement for cutting small shrubs, saplings, vines and such, with a hooked end to protect the blade from being dulled by the ground (same function as a machete except with a hooked end). I don't see a reason to make a tag for a distinctly Japanese billhook since I doubt there's any way to tell them apart for our purposes, especially since such examples as Rena's billhook from Higurashi are heavily stylized (basically just a cleaver with a hook at the end to look extra gruesome I suppose).
I don't think there's any reason to invent terms no one's heard of really, especially since the distinction seems pretty meaningless. Understandable that someone would mix this up though since it's such an obscure thing. Things like this can be hard to translate, not because the words don't exist, but because nobody's ever bothered putting it in the Japanese-English dictionary.
They're virtually identical and there are a ton of images that could be tagged either way or are just flat out aren't apparent in the image. In fact, the character used an example is tagged with both.
The physical difference between the two is that what we call a nose hatchet tends to be more square. That's a very weak distinction given that very, very few images actually make that distinction.
There's no reason to have two unusually specific terms for this. Nose hatchet has significantly more tags, but it's important to note that from 2006 to 2012 we only had billhook. In 2012, a single person went through, wrote in that "Don't mix this up" section on the billhook wiki, and gardened nearly every billhook to be a nose hatchet.
This is a standard case of "one guy on oldbooru being a haughty weeb" that should be cleared up.
This seems to be one of the many types of japanese "nata", that is, hatchets. I don't think it makes sense for us to have a special tag for it that is only used for a single character, when the two things are undistinguishable.
I just noticed we also have oriental hatchet, which implies hatchet along with western hatchet, despite the two things looking nothing alike (the western one is a small axe, the eastern one is a cleaver).
My issue with the proposed alias is that it will drag the hatchet implication into billhook.
--
Some background:
topic #8643 is how we ended up with the current nose hatchet, oriental hatchet, western hatchet tags.
The nata is... kinda of a Japanese multipurpose forestry tool that is basically shaped like a cleaver but used like a hatchet. There are some variants on the base shape, with some (the sword-natas) resembling machetes/parangs and some (the nata-sickles) resembling straight-up billhooks.
Rena's is a beaked nata (or billed nata), which are called variously as 嘴付き鉈 (beaked nata), 小嘴鉈 (small beak nata), and 大嘴鉈 (large beak nata) on the usual Japanese tool webpages. Most Japanese Higurashi fans don't bother with the "beak" distinction and just call Rena's a straight-up nata though.
English sources translate nata into many different kinds of words depending on the shape... like cleaver, machete, hatchet, sometimes billhooks. But after they started selling nata in the West, hatchet started edging out all the others because it more appropriately describes its function so it's easier to market it to people that way. The translation isn't symmetric though; Japanese sources usually translate "hatchet" into 手斧 (handaxe), and "billhook" into 鉈鎌 (nata-sickle) or plain 鉈 (nata).
As for Rena's epithet ("Nata girl"), it's usually translated as "cleaver girl" or "hatchet girl" in the Higurashi fanbase. "Billhook" is rare, and "nose hatchet" almost never comes up except in Boorus (which inherited our distinction, I guess).
nonamethanks said:
This seems to be one of the many types of japanese "nata", that is, hatchets. I don't think it makes sense for us to have a special tag for it that is only used for a single character, when the two things are undistinguishable.
I just noticed we also have oriental hatchet, which implies hatchet along with western hatchet, despite the two things looking nothing alike (the western one is a small axe, the eastern one is a cleaver).
We also have nata_(tool).
I say we mass update nose hatchet to oriental hatchet, nuke nose hatchet, then alias nata_(tool) to oriental hatchet. Then we punt sorting out the oriental hatchet, western hatchet, hatchet problem down the road for later.
Updated by NNescio
NNescio said:
My issue with the proposed alias is that it will drag the hatchet implication into billhook.
--
Some background:
topic #8643 is how we ended up with the current nose hatchet, oriental hatchet, western hatchet tags.
The nata is... kinda of a Japanese multipurpose forestry tool that is basically shaped like a cleaver but used like a hatchet. There are some variants on the base shape, with some (the sword-natas) resembling machetes/parangs and some (the nata-sickles) resembling straight-up billhooks.
Rena's is a beaked nata (or billed nata), which are called variously as 嘴付き鉈 (beaked nata), 小嘴鉈 (small beak nata), and 大嘴鉈 (large beak nata) on the usual Japanese tool webpages. Most Japanese Higurashi fans don't bother with the "beak" distinction and just call Rena's a straight-up nata though.
English sources translate nata into many different kinds of words depending on the shape... like cleaver, machete, hatchet, sometimes billhooks. But after they started selling nata in the West, hatchet started edging out all the others because it more appropriately describes its function so it's easier to market it to people that way. The translation isn't symmetric though; Japanese sources usually translate "hatchet" into 手斧 (handaxe), and "billhook" into 鉈鎌 (nata-sickle) or plain 鉈 (nata).
As for Rena's epithet ("Nata girl"), it's usually translated as "cleaver girl" or "hatchet girl" in the Higurashi fanbase. "Billhook" is rare, and "nose hatchet" almost never comes up except in Boorus (which inherited our distinction, I guess).
We also have nata_(tool).
I say we mass update nose hatchet to oriental hatchet, nuke nose hatchet, then alias nata_(tool) to oriental hatchet. Then we punt sorting out the oriental hatchet, western hatchet, hatchet problem down the road for later.
Considering that a billhook fulfills a similar function to an oriental hatchet, is it really a problem to retain the implication? It's used for forestry too after all.
Agree that nata_(tool) should be aliased to oriental_hatchet, clearly no significant distinction. But if an oriental hatchet and a so-called "nose hatchet", which doesn't resemble an axe at all can retain the hatchet implication, then something which shares the exact same form should also retain the implication. It's an agricultural/forestry implement after all, used for chopping branches and such. It's not really a hatchet, but it fits with the category since we have japanese cleaver-hatchets here. Either way I don't have much of an opinion
And nose_hatchet shouldn't be updated to oriental_hatchet, unless we want to nuke billhook too. It's not like there's any actual western billhooks tagged with it after all, it's all Japanese. I merely think it's the most appropriate translation.
The bulk update request #7359 (forum #197399) has been approved by @nonamethanks.
BUR #7400 has been approved by @nonamethanks.
remove implication western_hatchet -> hatchet
remove implication oriental_hatchet -> hatchet
remove implication nose_hatchet -> hatchet
remove implication holding_hatchet -> hatchet
create alias oriental_hatchet -> nata_(tool)
create alias hatchet_(oriental) -> nata_(tool)
create alias western_hatchet -> hatchet_(axe)
create implication hatchet_(axe) -> axe
Ok, let's try to make sense of this mess.
I am not fully convinced we really need to distinguish between oriental hatchet/nata and cleaver, but I can already hear a thousand weebs screeching at the thought so I'm going to leave that aside for now.
For the nose hatchet vs billhook debate, I honestly don't know. billhook ryuuguu_rena makes up for 2/3rd of the billhook tag. They're usually of distinct shape (with the billhook having a rounder side), but the fact that billhook is already overrun with that single character makes me think that there's not much use in keeping the distinction. However given that this is a japanese-centered site it feels weird to alias them together.
If someone can tell what the correct romanization for nose hatchet is we should move that tag, because it's a name someone here made up and it's pretty dumb. "kuchibashizuki-nata" returns zero results save for our wiki and some obscure subforum, but 嘴付き鉈 shows quite a few results for the right tool.
Last point: I really don't like how sakata_nemuno oriental_hatchet only shows cleavers. Gotta love people who blindly click related tags.
Updated by nonamethanks
nonamethanks said:
If someone can tell what the correct romanization for nose hatchet is we should move that tag, because it's a name someone here made up and it's pretty dumb. "kuchibashizuki-nata" returns zero results save for our wiki and some obscure subforum, but 嘴付き鉈 shows quite a few results for the right tool.
The romanization was sourced from Bladeforums. The term 嘴付き鉈 is obscure with barely any definitive pronunciation guides written down, so multiple readings of the kanji are possible. Kuchibashizuki-nata is valid, in a sense, but as I understand it the pronunciation "hashitsuki-nata" is more common. Searching "hashitsuki nata" also turns up some English (and German, etc.) results, spelled as two words without the hyphen.
A shorter term exists: 嘴鉈, usually pronounced "hashi-nata". Searching for it also turns up some results (again, without the hyphen) but fewer than "hashitsuki nata".
Edit: Double-checked on the Japanese interwebs. Using kana-only searches turns up regular results for "はしつきなた" (hashitsukinata) but not the other pronunciations. Using はしなた (hashinata) turns up results as part of "kohashinata" but almost never "hashinata" in isolation.
Edit2: If we want to change the name of the tag, I'd recommend beaked_nata, beaked_hatchet_(Japanese) or hashitsuki nata. My preference is to forgo the tag entirely and just alias/move it into nata_(tool) because most Japanese anime/manga/game fans don't distinguish between a normal nata and a beaked nata anyway; Rena is almost always called the "Nata Girl" and her weapon just "nata".
Appearance-wise, I'd say the beaked_nata resembles a normal nata (or even a cleaver) more than it does a billhook.
Updated by NNescio
nonamethanks said:
BUR #7400 has been approved by @nonamethanks.
remove implication western_hatchet -> hatchet
remove implication oriental_hatchet -> hatchet
remove implication nose_hatchet -> hatchet
remove implication holding_hatchet -> hatchet
create alias oriental_hatchet -> nata_(tool)
create alias hatchet_(oriental) -> nata_(tool)
create alias western_hatchet -> hatchet_(axe)
create implication hatchet_(axe) -> axeOk, let's try to make sense of this mess.
- oriental hatchet and western hatchet have an umbrella tag, when they should not, because they look nothing alike.
- hatchet should be moved into the two above where applicable and then nuked, though that needs cleanup: hatchet -oriental_hatchet -western_hatchet -ryuuguu_rena
- holding hatchet should get holding axe where applicable, it's so small that the rest that is not western hatchets can just go to holding weapon.
- western hatchet should imply axe, and should get a better name because nobody will think of using "western hatchet" when they're from the west
- oriental hatchet is not a real term, so we should prioritize the real one (nata)
I am not fully convinced we really need to distinguish between oriental hatchet/nata and cleaver, but I can already hear a thousand weebs screeching at the thought so I'm going to leave that aside for now.
For the nose hatchet vs billhook debate, I honestly don't know. billhook ryuuguu_rena makes up for 2/3rd of the billhook tag. They're usually of distinct shape (with the billhook having a rounder side), but the fact that billhook is already overrun with that single character makes me think that there's not much use in keeping the distinction. However given that this is a japanese-centered site it feels weird to alias them together.
If someone can tell what the correct romanization for nose hatchet is we should move that tag, because it's a name someone here made up and it's pretty dumb. "kuchibashizuki-nata" returns zero results save for our wiki and some obscure subforum, but 嘴付き鉈 shows quite a few results for the right tool.
Last point: I really don't like how sakata_nemuno oriental_hatchet only shows cleavers. Gotta love people who blindly click related tags.
nonamethanks said:
BUR #7400 has been approved by @nonamethanks.
remove implication western_hatchet -> hatchet
remove implication oriental_hatchet -> hatchet
remove implication nose_hatchet -> hatchet
remove implication holding_hatchet -> hatchet
create alias oriental_hatchet -> nata_(tool)
create alias hatchet_(oriental) -> nata_(tool)
create alias western_hatchet -> hatchet_(axe)
create implication hatchet_(axe) -> axeOk, let's try to make sense of this mess.
- oriental hatchet and western hatchet have an umbrella tag, when they should not, because they look nothing alike.
- hatchet should be moved into the two above where applicable and then nuked, though that needs cleanup: hatchet -oriental_hatchet -western_hatchet -ryuuguu_rena
- holding hatchet should get holding axe where applicable, it's so small that the rest that is not western hatchets can just go to holding weapon.
- western hatchet should imply axe, and should get a better name because nobody will think of using "western hatchet" when they're from the west
- oriental hatchet is not a real term, so we should prioritize the real one (nata)
I am not fully convinced we really need to distinguish between oriental hatchet/nata and cleaver, but I can already hear a thousand weebs screeching at the thought so I'm going to leave that aside for now.
For the nose hatchet vs billhook debate, I honestly don't know. billhook ryuuguu_rena makes up for 2/3rd of the billhook tag. They're usually of distinct shape (with the billhook having a rounder side), but the fact that billhook is already overrun with that single character makes me think that there's not much use in keeping the distinction. However given that this is a japanese-centered site it feels weird to alias them together.
If someone can tell what the correct romanization for nose hatchet is we should move that tag, because it's a name someone here made up and it's pretty dumb. "kuchibashizuki-nata" returns zero results save for our wiki and some obscure subforum, but 嘴付き鉈 shows quite a few results for the right tool.
Last point: I really don't like how sakata_nemuno oriental_hatchet only shows cleavers. Gotta love people who blindly click related tags.
what's the point of creating hatchet_(oriental), and why must it be nata_(tool) rather than just nata when there's nothing it could be confused with?
I agree nata should be the one it's aliased to however, it's the proper term after all. I'm not one to take offense, but "oriental hatchet" is a bit silly.
And those images under "sakata_nemuno oriental_hatchet" look like natas to me.
what's the point of creating hatchet_(oriental)
It's a legacy alias, for people used to tagging hatchet.
and why must it be nata_(tool) rather than just nata when there's nothing it could be confused with?
Because there's several tags starting with nata* and this is a new tag. It also emphasizes that this is a tool, and not to be used with random giant cleaver weapons.
The bulk update request #7400 (forum #197595) has been approved by @nonamethanks.
The bulk update request #7307 (forum #197187) has been rejected by @nonamethanks.
BUR #7463 has been approved by @nonamethanks.
create alias nose_hatchet -> hashitsuki_nata
create implication hashitsuki_nata -> nata_(tool)
I'll finish sorting hatchet into the correct tags in the next few days. I'm rejecting the nose hatchet -> billhook alias because after looking at a lot of those posts, they look completely different. I actually found a very very small amount of "actual" billhook posts. And of course a massive amount of nose hatchets were just cleavers tagged canonically.
In the meanwhile, fixing the tag's name. For now I'm content with letting this be an implication, it can always be revisited in the future if someone has the mental strength to check nata_(tool) -hashitsuki_nata.
Updated by nonamethanks
The bulk update request #7463 (forum #197931) has been approved by @nonamethanks.
nonamethanks said:
BUR #7463 has been approved by @nonamethanks.
create alias nose_hatchet -> hashitsuki_nata
create implication hashitsuki_nata -> nata_(tool)I'll finish sorting hatchet into the correct tags in the next few days. I'm rejecting the nose hatchet -> billhook alias because after looking at a lot of those posts, they look completely different. I actually found a very very small amount of "actual" billhook posts. And of course a massive amount of nose hatchets were just cleavers tagged canonically.
In the meanwhile, fixing the tag's name. For now I'm content with letting this be an implication, it can always be revisited in the future if someone has the mental strength to check nata_(tool) -hashitsuki_nata.
Thank you for gardening the hatchets.
