Danbooru

[REJECTED] Streetcar -> tram

Posted under Tags

BUR #2002 has been rejected.

remove alias tram -> streetcar
mass update streetcar -> tram
create alias streetcar -> tram

Reason: Currently, the keyword tram have been aliased to streetcar, however, many of the images in the streetcar tag are actually about tram that run on its own rail that's not part of a road(street) that would be required for the item to be defined as a streetcar. Thus I think it would be more appropriate to use the term "tram" instead of "streetcar" for the tag.

EDIT: This bulk update request is pending automatic rejection in 5 days.

EDIT: This bulk update request has been rejected because it was not approved within 60 days.

EDIT: The bulk update request #2002 (forum #156136) has been rejected by @DanbooruBot.

Updated by DanbooruBot

Tram is kind of a catch-all term for vehicles which have a similar look to them but have different functions. I don't think it makes sense to switch up the aliases and have a specific term aliased to a vague term.

seika0 said:

Tram is kind of a catch-all term for vehicles which have a similar look to them but have different functions. I don't think it makes sense to switch up the aliases and have a specific term aliased to a vague term.

But that's the point, many of the existing image being tagged as tram are just tram and they ate not streetcar.

iridescent_slime said:

-1 for the reason in forum #98134. Tram is ambiguous and has multiple meanings depending on location, including aerial tramways and linked vehicles without rails. Streetcar only has one common definition, even if the tag gets misused anyway on occasion.

Removing the existing alias and turning tram into a disambiguation page like Wikipedia does may alleviate the mistagging, but it's simply too vague to use as a tag.

Aerial tramway is aerial tramway and is not a tram. Just like you won't confuse an Airbus with a bus.
Streetcar have a common definition and that definition doesn't fit many pictures that are now tagged as such.
And I don't think it would be helpful to turn tram into a disambiguation page like wikipedia because I don't know what else can they be called other than as a tram and certainly not a streetcar. The wikipedia disambiguation page is simply listing other systems that are also described as tram in various different locations, and that doesn't mean they are tram.

741qwe852asd963zxc said:

Aerial tramway is aerial tramway and is not a tram.

That's your opinion. The primary definition of tram, according to Merriam-Webster, is a carrier that travels on an overhead cable or rails, so it's apparent that someone uses the word for that purpose even if you don't.

Streetcar have a common definition and that definition doesn't fit many pictures that are now tagged as such.

It fits the majority of them, and the rest can be easily cleaned up. Streetcar is rarely used (seriously, it's only 140 posts) so keeping it maintained shouldn't be too much trouble. Your solution of completely replacing a tag because it occasionally gets used incorrectly is like amputating a limb because of a bee sting. You're not solving the problem of streetcar being misused; you're just ensuring that it's impossible to search for actual streetcars without having to dig through images of various other vehicles commonly known as trams.

And I don't think it would be helpful to turn tram into a disambiguation page like wikipedia because I don't know what else can they be called other than as a tram and certainly not a streetcar. The wikipedia disambiguation page is simply listing other systems that are also described as tram in various different locations, and that doesn't mean they are tram.

Please try to understand that words can have multiple meanings. This is a difficult concept for some people to grasp, but it's important to first understand this in order to see my next point. If Alice and Bob use the same word in reference to different things, that doesn't mean that Alice is right and Bob is wrong, or vice versa. They're both using the word correctly within their own contexts. The English language is a very messy thing and this is something that you have to get used to.

"Tram" is one of those words. You acknowledge that different modes of transportation are known as trams in some places, but you then go on to say "that doesn't mean they are tram", and this is just plain wrong. If I'm talking to my neighbors and using "tram" in reference to a light rail system, and they know what I'm talking about because that's what the word is understood to mean in my area, this is fine. We can communicate without any trouble thanks to our common definition of "tram", regardless of what people in other regions think the word means.

On a site with global scope like Danbooru, however, this becomes a problem, because the users here may have dramatically different expectations for how certain words are used. When you take a word with multiple meanings, "tram" in this case, and try to turn it into a tag, that tag becomes a clusterfuck because you're guaranteed to have users tagging images according to their own personal definition of the word rather than whatever our wiki defines it to be. Sites like Wikipedia can get away with using the most common definition of the word for the main article and putting the other meanings in a disambiguation page, because they're only providing encyclopedic information about that word. We can't do this, because we use tags for categorizing things, and using an ambiguous term like "tram" only ensures that it will be used to categorized everything known as a tram, regardless of what definition you happen to agree with.

Updated

iridescent_slime said:

It fits the majority of them, and the rest can be easily cleaned up. Streetcar is rarely used (seriously, it's only 140 posts) so keeping it maintained shouldn't be too much trouble. Your solution of completely replacing a tag because it occasionally gets used incorrectly is like amputating a limb because of a bee sting. You're not solving the problem of streetcar being misused; you're just ensuring that it's impossible to search for actual streetcars without having to dig through images of various other vehicles commonly known as trams.

But where can they be cleanup to?
Like post #3473924 post #3321528 post #3123154 post #3002085 post #2920905 post #2837964 post #2812665
They are not streetcar, but what are they if they are not to be tagged as tram?
And that is not a small number, there's already 7 images that are not streetcar after I have look at the first 28 in the tag that should not be tagged as streetcar, and already excluded pictures that should have tagged as other things.

741qwe852asd963zxc said:

But where can they be cleanup to?
Like post #3473924 post #3321528 post #3123154 post #3002085 post #2920905 post #2837964 post #2812665
They are not streetcar, but what are they if they are not to be tagged as tram?
And that is not a small number, there's already 7 images that are not streetcar after I have look at the first 28 in the tag that should not be tagged as streetcar, and already excluded pictures that should have tagged as other things.

Can you be more specific about why you don't think any of these should be tagged as streetcars? Most of these examples appear to be correctly tagged, the possible exceptions being post #2837964 and post #3002085, which I probably would have tagged as electric trains, and post #3473924. Remember that the streetcar tag isn't for the tracks but for the vehicle itself; there's no rule stating that streetcars can only appear on paved roads.

Also, it's funny that you named post #3473924 here, despite the fact that for some reason you it tagged as a streetcar

Updated

iridescent_slime said:

Can you be more specific about why you don't think any of these should be tagged as streetcars? Most of these examples appear to be correctly tagged, the possible exceptions being post #2837964 and post #3002085, which I probably would have tagged as electric trains, and post #3473924. Remember that the streetcar tag isn't for the tracks but for the vehicle itself; there's no rule stating that streetcars can only appear on paved roads.

They are tram that doesn't run on streets like streetcar would have. They are not train (Or they have features that can be counted as both trams and trains) according to my understanding.
Streetcar by definition mean tram that run on street.

Also, it's funny that you named post #3473924 here, despite the fact that for some reason you it tagged as a streetcar

That was redirected from tram, what else can that be tagged?

741qwe852asd963zxc said:

Streetcar by definition mean tram that run on street.

A streetcar is a type of vehicle designed to travel on rails embedded in city streets, that much is true. Those rails can (and often do) leave the pavement, however. Streetcars don't magically stop being streetcars the moment they go off-road.

Once again, the tag is for the type of vehicle. The only question you should be asking when deciding whether or not to use the tag is, "Does it look like a streetcar?" Whether it's on or off the street in any given image is completely irrelevant.

With regard to post #3473924, I don't believe there is a tag for fantasy vehicles that look like trains but float on the water instead of tracks. Probably because such things don't actually exist.

iridescent_slime said:

A streetcar is a type of vehicle designed to travel on rails embedded in city streets, that much is true. Those rails can (and often do) leave the pavement, however. Streetcars don't magically stop being streetcars the moment they go off-road.

Once again, the tag is for the type of vehicle. The only question you should be asking when deciding whether or not to use the tag is, "Does it look like a streetcar?" Whether it's on or off the street in any given image is completely irrelevant.

With regard to post #3473924, I don't believe there is a tag for fantasy vehicles that look like trains but float on the water instead of tracks. Probably because such things don't actually exist.

Why about tram that are not designed to travel on rails embedded in city street at all? Like the two remaining tram line in Tokyo, Tōkyū Setagaya Line and Toden Arakawa Line? They are also depicted in images that have been tagged as streetcar on the site

Rampardos said:

Are you going to suggest a better tag name or not? Tram is too ambiguous, so that's out.

Rampardos said:

Are you going to suggest a better tag name or not? Tram is too ambiguous, so that's out.

If you talk about ambiguity then streetcar could also mean all street-running vehicles?

741qwe852asd963zxc said:

If you talk about ambiguity then streetcar could also mean all street-running vehicles?

Uh, no? Streetcar is pretty specific. In contrast, when you say "tram", you could mean a streetcar, an aerial tram, or an actual train.

741qwe852asd963zxc said:

What? "a public vehicle running regularly along certain streets, usually on rails, as a trolley car or trolley bus." is a much boarder definition than tram.

I’m not continuing this debate anymore, since you refuse to acknowledge the validity of the opinions of others, clearly didn’t read my post that said "when you say "tram", you could mean a streetcar, an aerial tram, or an actual train.", which debunked your argument, and have made it plain as day that you aren’t going to change your opinion on this matter in spite of an overwhelming amount of well-explained pushback.
PS: I’ll make it crystal clear what the difference is here. You don’t see aerial trams or trains running on streets (outside of designated crossing areas, if you want to be persnickety about it). However, streetcars DO run on streets. It’s in the name, and the definition you provided.

seika0 said:

I’m not continuing this debate anymore, since you refuse to acknowledge the validity of the opinions of others, clearly didn’t read my post that said "when you say "tram", you could mean a streetcar, an aerial tram, or an actual train.", which debunked your argument, and have made it plain as day that you aren’t going to change your opinion on this matter in spite of an overwhelming amount of well-explained pushback.
PS: I’ll make it crystal clear what the difference is here. You don’t see aerial trams or trains running on streets (outside of designated crossing areas, if you want to be persnickety about it). However, streetcars DO run on streets. It’s in the name, and the definition you provided.

1. Trams are not necessarily run on street. I understand that It can also mean other things in various places around the world but there are no any better terms.
2. Streetcar do run on street but there are no limitation as to which vehicles they use. Like even a trolley or a trolleybus can be considered streetcar as according to my quoted source.

741qwe852asd963zxc said:

I understand that It can also mean other things in various places around the world but there are no any better terms.

If it's okay for tram to be vague, then it's okay for streetcar. Since that's the established term on the site, and they're aliased anyways, nothing needs to be done.

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