Mysterious_Uploader said:
Although, wouldn't it be possible to make some sort of "JP/EN" visual toggle setting? This would please both sides.
It's in the roadmap I believe, but a long way off.
Posted under Tags
blindVigil said:
Is there any reason for these to be implications rather than aliases? These characters are visually indistinguishable as far as I'm aware. Most other pokemon character tags only get separate tags if it's possible to tell them apart at a glance.
Previous topic: topic #16569
Danielx21 said:
No, please don't. In the manga Pokémon Adventures, the girl wears both the black dress and the FRLG outfit.
In that manga, she is named Green (English) or Blue (Japanese), but not Leaf. Leaf is a name used in the context of the games.
Also Leaf's shirt design mostly being blue in color and Blue's shirt design/color pattern in LGPE being an inversion of Leaf's (Leaf = blue w/ black outlines, Blue = Black w/ blue outlines) should be taken into consideration that is probably not a mere coincidence. It's not the same as Kris/Crystal and Kotone/Lyra which are clearly different characters.
I personally believe the tags are perfect as is, because people who don't know the Japanese names can still search the English names and get the characters. Then there's also the issues brought up with Leaf/Blue and Green. Swapping those tags would lead to confusion. Personally it would be a downgrade for me since I know a lot more of the Japanese names than I do the English names.
PikaFan15 said:
I personally believe the tags are perfect as is, because people who don't know the Japanese names can still search the English names and get the characters. Then there's also the issues brought up with Leaf/Blue and Green. Swapping those tags would lead to confusion. Personally it would be a downgrade for me since I know a lot more of the Japanese names than I do the English names.
I think the confusion will only be at the beginning, aliasing blue_(pokemon_special) to green_(pokemon_adventures) should suffice. Bulbapedia already does that for example.
As for you knowing the japanese names more than the english, i feel like the majority is the opposite.
Mysterious_Uploader said:
As for you knowing the japanese names more than the english, i feel like the majority is the opposite.
I don't think you, me, or anyone else in this thread has any right to claim what the majority knows or prefers. If we really want to know that, then an admin should add a sticky notification at the top (like it was done several times in the past) that invites people here to voice their concerns, and give them some time too, not everyone has time to lurk Danbooru constantly.
On a more general note, I don't like how many large changes lately have been pushed through without much discussion or within a short time frame. And I dislike even more how some discussions are being held at Discord and then their results are used as a justification here (not talking about this topic specifically), even though many users couldn't participate in them, or even knew about them.
As for Pokemon tags, I'm not a fan of the franchise, but even then I'm still more familiar with the Japanese names. And I would prefer to keep Japanese names as our tags, not even because I know them better, but for the sake of consistency with the rest of Danbooru.
Additionally, I agree with pc88's arguments in forum #170400. His post highlights why this change is not beneficial, and the same is true for most other JP->EN reforms too.
Updated
MyrMindservant said:
I don't think you, me, or anyone else in this thread has any right to claim what the majority knows or prefers. If we really want to know that, then an admin should add a sticky notification at the top (like it was done several times in the past) that invites people here to voice their concerns, and give them some time too, not everyone has time to lurk Danbooru constantly.
Statistically speaking, it's pretty obvious that english people, or people who speak english, know english names better than japanese names. I did consider making a poll outside of danbooru, but it would be hard to run it without interference/rigging.
And I would prefer to keep Japanese names as our tags, not even because I know them better, but for the sake of consistency with the rest of Danbooru.
We've been using the english names of pokemons for years, should they be changed in japanese?
Usually the matter of consistency is less of Danbooru as a whole and more of a single copyright-by-copyright basis, and since it seems that everyone here prefers english pokemon names over japanese, we should do the same for character names.
Mysterious_Uploader said:
Statistically speaking, it's pretty obvious that english people, or people who speak english, know english names better than japanese names. I did consider making a poll outside of danbooru, but it would be hard to run it without interference/rigging.
Yeah, you are probably right about random English speakers on the internet. But, I was referring to Danbooru users in particular, not some random people elsewhere. And secondly, not everyone here is a native English speaker (or from an English speaking country), there are people who are playing/reading Pokemon stuff in other languages too.
Mysterious_Uploader said:
We've been using the english names of pokemons for years, should they be changed in japanese?
Usually the matter of consistency is less of Danbooru as a whole and more of a single copyright-by-copyright basis, and since it seems that everyone here prefers english pokemon names over japanese, we should do the same for character names.
But character names and copyright names were Japanese for all these years. And most people should be used to it at this point. So why do we need to change it now? What benefits will it bring?
I'm not asking to change pokemon names to Japanese, I'm saying that current arrangement works fine and there is no need to mess with it.
Also, I think the edit to my previous post was overlooked, so I want to bring attention to forum #170400 again. I'll even quote it for visibility:
pc88 said:
Japanese names for the characters (especially the main characters) are more consistent, usually more segregated from each other, anime Japanese names are less likely to produce duplicates (small example, There's 3 Anthonys and 3 Marys in the English anime, while they all have different distinguished names in Japanese) and are often the first we know about when first revealed making it easier for tagging new releases, long before the official localization name comes around.
It's always been a slight inconsistency with how the Pokemon names are handled but I always found it made sense. Pokemon are generally consistent across the entire franchise while the characters themselves are interchanged and have multiple variants depending on medium or story, which is also why the characters designs are tagged according to the design/context they happen to be in from the game/anime season unlike Pokemon which usually are stagnant and alone don't usually get tagged with the game/anime introduced.
I don't see much benefit in the English names for named characters. Them being more well-known/recognizable is an obvious, self-explanatory given: this is an English site and most people here are English speaking. Of course the English names are going to be more known. I don't see how that overrides the benefits of more accurate, distinguished archival tagging of the long term (as we have done so since this site's inception), especially when aliases are a thing that shows you the English names anyway.
MyrMindservant said:
Yeah, you are probably right about random English speakers on the internet. But, I was referring to Danbooru users in particular, not some random people elsewhere.
Danbooru users aren't some kind of high and mighty special breed, with a perfect grasp on japanese. They're normal people, and normal people come in varieties. I'm mainly talking for the lurker side, not those active, because of course contributors are more used to japanese names, but this site should be made with casual users in mind too.
And secondly, not everyone here is a native English speaker (or from an English speaking country), there are people who are playing/reading Pokemon stuff in other languages too.
That's what i meant by "people who speak english", i wanted to encompass both first-language and second-language english speakers.
But character names and copyright names were Japanese for all these years. And most people should be used to it at this point. So why do we need to change it now? What benefits will it bring?
The goal is having the site easier to use for casual people. Those used to it visit Danbooru frequently, but every fan site i went to, i saw people using english names, not japanese (with the usual outlier of Satoshi and the likes). Given her recent popularity in Pokemon Masters, have you ever seen anyone referring to Rosa as Mei (pokemon)? Even Serebii, which has a bias for japanese names, uses Rosa over Mei.
As for the post you sent, there was no need to quote it but since we're at it: It's honestly not a bad argument, and i usually prefer archival over other things, but, taking my previous character example, noone bothers with having aliases added to jp names.
This is either having more accessible but slightly worse tagging or better but less accessible tagging. Ideally you would have both, but until a JP/EN layout switcher is made, i'd go with EN over JP names.
Just my two cents as far as the "It doesn't make sense to use JP names for the characters and EN names for the pokemon" comment goes: The characters all have proper names, while the pokemon are all usually only referred to by their species name. From my perspective wanting the pokemon names to be Japanese as well would be like wanting to change "dog" to "inu." I feel the same way about most Mario enemies as many of them don't have proper names to begin with.
(Quick sidenote: I'm one of those ubernerds who isn't particularly happy about using EN name tags for the Fire Emblem, Granblue Fantasy or any other such characters. I'd much rather have EN -> JP aliasing on all fronts simply for the reason that those are the proper names they were meant to have. Not that I begrudge people for using the names they're familiar with.)
Was there ever a consensus about Pokemon specials manga tagging? Cause if we're gonna change all the normal name tags. We should add in pokemon specials naming tags too.
The manga characters are TOTALLY DIFFERENT from the game and anime counterparts. Red in game is some super silent protagonist while Red in specials manga is your shounen protagonist that talks abour herorics and stuff.
Blue is also really different in the manga, being super flirty and a bit sexy. or at least she tries to be sexy. You also got old team rocket with Sabrina, and Surge actually being the bad guys while Game and anime counterparts are just normal gym leaders.
I feel whenever i try to search up the manga version of these characters, i'm still getting anime and game counterparts.
Tetsamaru said:
Was there ever a consensus about Pokemon specials manga tagging? Cause if we're gonna change all the normal name tags. We should add in pokemon specials naming tags too.
The manga characters are TOTALLY DIFFERENT from the game and anime counterparts. Red in game is some super silent protagonist while Red in specials manga is your shounen protagonist that talks abour herorics and stuff.
Blue is also really different in the manga, being super flirty and a bit sexy. or at least she tries to be sexy. You also got old team rocket with Sabrina, and Surge actually being the bad guys while Game and anime counterparts are just normal gym leaders.
I feel whenever i try to search up the manga version of these characters, i'm still getting anime and game counterparts.
Because most of the manga characters share tags with the game counterparts, because personality aside, they're often identical and very difficult to distinguish. That seems to be an old policy, though, newer manga characters get their own tags even when they are identical.
If we're gonna separate newer characters, we should probably do the same for the older ones, too.
Tetsamaru said:
Was there ever a consensus about Pokemon specials manga tagging? Cause if we're gonna change all the normal name tags. We should add in pokemon specials naming tags too.
The manga characters are TOTALLY DIFFERENT from the game and anime counterparts. Red in game is some super silent protagonist while Red in specials manga is your shounen protagonist that talks abour herorics and stuff.
Blue is also really different in the manga, being super flirty and a bit sexy. or at least she tries to be sexy. You also got old team rocket with Sabrina, and Surge actually being the bad guys while Game and anime counterparts are just normal gym leaders.
I feel whenever i try to search up the manga version of these characters, i'm still getting anime and game counterparts.
blindVigil said:
Because most of the manga characters share tags with the game counterparts, because personality aside, they're often identical and very difficult to distinguish. That seems to be an old policy, though, newer manga characters get their own tags even when they are identical.
If we're gonna separate newer characters, we should probably do the same for the older ones, too.
We can search for character and copyright tags, like this:
These suggested searches are also listed in red_(pokemon), and in other Pokémon character wikis as well.
Historically, we used to have some tags for character+copyright combinations, like red_(pokemon)_(remake) which was about Red from Pokémon FRLG, and kagari_(pokemon)_(remake), which was Kagari (Courtney) from Pokémon ORAS. But they were not really needed since we can simply search character + copyright tags anyway. They also used to cause a lot of problems... Many character+copyright combinations didn't have their own tags at all, and many posts lacked the existing character+copyright combination tags.
Not to mention that we used to have very long cosplay tags like red_(pokemon)_(remake)_(cosplay) and kagari_(pokemon)_(remake)_(cosplay), which were also inconsistently used in the posts.
This was discussed years ago (topic #15134), and I helped to delete the tags like red_(pokemon)_(remake) and kagari_(pokemon)_(remake).
Please don't separate them again (like separating the various versions of Red). In my experience, it's not worth it.
+1 to what Danielx21 wrote.
Relatedly, I feel the discussion in topic #16569 doesn't adequately explain the advantage to having separate manga character tags compared to adding a copyright tag:
mei_(pokemon) pokemon_special
vs
whi-two_(pokemon)
Could these simply be aliased?
Provence said:
Anyway, we are a website with an English layout.
It makes little sense to use a language that is no English for any media that has an official English localization.It's as original as the Japanese name for the same character.
How far does the "english localization" thought process go though? Many anime & manga on this site use japanese copyright tags but many of them have long had either official English translated or localized titles, and some characters even have different names in English (though that is less likely of a practice nowadays, it was common in the earlier days, especially with censorship). If the standard moving forward is to chase after the english/localized titles for being "more recognizable" then tons of anime/manga copyrights need an overhaul.
Danielx21 said:
We can search for character and copyright tags, like this:
- red_(pokemon) pokemon_special
- red_(pokemon) pokemon_(game)
- red_(pokemon) pokemon_frlg
- red_(pokemon) pokemon_sm
- red_(pokemon) pokemon_lgpe
- red_(pokemon) pokemon_masters
These suggested searches are also listed in red_(pokemon), and in other Pokémon character wikis as well.
Historically, we used to have some tags for character+copyright combinations, like red_(pokemon)_(remake) which was about Red from Pokémon FRLG, and kagari_(pokemon)_(remake), which was Kagari (Courtney) from Pokémon ORAS. But they were not really needed since we can simply search character + copyright tags anyway. They also used to cause a lot of problems... Many character+copyright combinations didn't have their own tags at all, and many posts lacked the existing character+copyright combination tags.
Not to mention that we used to have very long cosplay tags like red_(pokemon)_(remake)_(cosplay) and kagari_(pokemon)_(remake)_(cosplay), which were also inconsistently used in the posts.
This was discussed years ago (topic #15134), and I helped to delete the tags like red_(pokemon)_(remake) and kagari_(pokemon)_(remake).
Please don't separate them again (like separating the various versions of Red). In my experience, it's not worth it.
The thing is, the only actually necessary separation needed here is between game and manga. All of the game Reds would be under one tag with the relevant game tags applied to each post like you've already suggested, as they are actually the same person, and Pokemon Special Red would be under a different tag.
Which is exactly what we're doing with the characters mentioned in topic #16569. It's inconsistent. Newer characters were given separate character tags so that,
DreamFromTheLayer said:
Someone searching for Mei would find Whi-two pictures and the Whi-two tag stays for people looking for the SP character.
We've already been going against the old policy of Pokemon character tags regarding different, but identical, variants of the characters. Though they have different names, as far as tagging is concerned they're often indistinguishable without context.
Or you know instead you can just keep it as is... and not change it for the sake of changing it The only thing that really needs to change is how the Pokemon 2019 anime is tagged as, since there is no such thing as a sword and shield anime why is the Tag pokemon_swsh_(anime)?
domanus said:
Or you know instead you can just keep it as is... and not change it for the sake of changing it
The change from JP to EN has already been decided, the discussion is about whether to keep manga characters separate or together.
Which i feel like should be tackled after this BUR.