The bulk update request #11098 (forum #216232) has been approved by @nonamethanks.
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The bulk update request #11098 (forum #216232) has been approved by @nonamethanks.
sadodere said:
The name isn't "not well-known," as you put it.
I just showed you that it only appears in 4 dialogue lines within the entire game... You can't just say "actually, you're wrong" without explaining why I'm wrong. I'm open to discussion, but I'm not sure how I'm supposed to talk with someone who just ignores my objective argument and treats as just an opinion.
As someone who actually plays the game
skylightcrystal said:
Anyone who plays the game
[...]
Luciela is used repeatedly in the quests dealing with Aegirp
I'm mainly thinking about people who don't know much about the game, or just play through it in a casual manner.
I dropped out a bit after the Rosso raid dropped, because I couldn't progress past Elrianode without heavy grinding. The Aegirp storyline is relatively recent, and I'm not sure how long it would take for a casual player to play through the entire story to reach that point.
I will concede Ainchase Ishmael, because in the character creation screen Ain introduces himself as "Ainchase Ishmael". However, Lu and Ciel introduce themselves as just "Lu and Ciel", and for 95%+ of the game she's called Lu.
I can't help but think that changing to the shorter form would set a precedent that would presumably affect hundreds of other characters who everyone knows their full name but who are usually referred to as a shortened form and result in the creation of masses of name_(copyright) type tags.
I don't think Elsword is nowhere near relevant on Danbooru to have that big of an impact, however what you described has already happened. evazion's statement pretty much sums up our discussion, down to the argument of how important Lu's full name is in the lore.
sadodere said:
Luciela's full name is what she's known by.
I don't think we should decide what name to use for a character on the basis of the people who are not familiar with the game in question not being familiar with them.
Going through evazion's points on Genshin and thinking about them for Lu:
"None of these characters (that I've met so far) tell you their full name upfront. I haven't found out anyone's full name yet after hours of play."
- If you choose to play as them then the name "Luciela R. Sourcream" comes up before you even do anything. If you don't play as her then the name Luciela is introduced 3 lines after the character is, and the full name a couple of quests later.
"There are in-game character profiles, and the one for Mona mentions her full name, but none of the rest do."
- There aren't really in-game profiles unless you count the character's character select screen. Which doesn't mention much
The next two points are about Genshin's friendship system which aren't really relevant
"Some characters also have story quests, but searching through the dialog transcripts on the Genshin wiki, I can't find any that mention anyone's full name."
Lu/Ciel's story quest includes the full name Luciela R. Sourcream.
"Speaking of the Genshin wiki, even they, the dedicated fan wiki, only use first names in their wiki page names (e.g. Jean, Eula). They only mention full names briefly, usually as minor trivia."
The wiki uses Lu/Ciel. I have stated previously that the fanbase will generally refer to her as Lu. This ultimately is the main core of the argument for changing it. But Luciela is far from unknown or hidden away like the genshin examples were.
skylightcrystal said:
I don't think we should decide what name to use for a character on the basis of the people who are not familiar with the game in question not being familiar with them.
Going through evazion's points on Genshin and thinking about them for Lu:
"None of these characters (that I've met so far) tell you their full name upfront. I haven't found out anyone's full name yet after hours of play."
- If you choose to play as them then the name "Luciela R. Sourcream" comes up before you even do anything. If you don't play as her then the name Luciela is introduced 3 lines after the character is, and the full name a couple of quests later."There are in-game character profiles, and the one for Mona mentions her full name, but none of the rest do."
- There aren't really in-game profiles unless you count the character's character select screen. Which doesn't mention muchThe next two points are about Genshin's friendship system which aren't really relevant
"Some characters also have story quests, but searching through the dialog transcripts on the Genshin wiki, I can't find any that mention anyone's full name."
Lu/Ciel's story quest includes the full name Luciela R. Sourcream."Speaking of the Genshin wiki, even they, the dedicated fan wiki, only use first names in their wiki page names (e.g. Jean, Eula). They only mention full names briefly, usually as minor trivia."
The wiki uses Lu/Ciel. I have stated previously that the fanbase will generally refer to her as Lu. This ultimately is the main core of the argument for changing it. But Luciela is far from unknown or hidden away like the genshin examples were.
Second this. You explained much better than I did.
skylightcrystal said:
Going through evazion's points on Genshin and thinking about them for Lu:
"None of these characters (that I've met so far) tell you their full name upfront. I haven't found out anyone's full name yet after hours of play."
- If you choose to play as them then the name "Luciela R. Sourcream" comes up before you even do anything. If you don't play as her then the name Luciela is introduced 3 lines after the character is, and the full name a couple of quests later.
Assuming someone chooses one of the other 13 playable characters that aren't Lu, and assuming someone actually reads through the story (because if they skip dialogues they wouldn't be able to run into the character's full name in the first place), they would be able to encounter Lu as early as Lanox, which is the 9th region of the game.
She appears near the end of Chapter 17, and assuming each chapter has 4 quests on average, It should be about 68 quests. I have no idea if progression has been sped up, but i believe that should be about 10+ hours of game time for a first-time player who isn't rushing through the story, to run into the single instance of her full name which won't come back until you reach the current final region (which requires grinding).
"Some characters also have story quests, but searching through the dialog transcripts on the Genshin wiki, I can't find any that mention anyone's full name."
Lu/Ciel's story quest includes the full name Luciela R. Sourcream.
Which is only available if you play as them.
The wiki uses Lu/Ciel.
The wiki refers to her alone as Lu [1] [2], and for what it's worth there's Lu's Crown.
The point i was making though was later down the line:
Wikipedia calls this the "Use commonly recognizable names" or "common names" rule (WP:COMMONNAME). This is something I very much agree with. Too many times we get caught up trying to use the "most official" or "most correct" name, and end up with a name nobody recognizes. See: how we originally used the Chinese name for Azur Lane (Bilan Hangxian). Genshin is a Chinese game, if we were a slave to the rules then we would be using the Chinese name for it (and everyone in it) too.
[...]
If her last name is important, then it can always be explained in the wiki. We don't have to pack everything in the tag name.
As far as I can tell, for most of these characters their last name is just obscure trivia. If the turbonerds at the Genshin Impact wiki are fine with just calling her Eula, then I am too.
As for the reason why I would like to alias Ainchase Ishmael to Ain_(elsword):
It's just confusing when you see a Genshin Impact post and you see some characters are named like firstname_(genshin_impact), others are named like firstname_lastname, and you have no idea why. Why does Lisa Minci have a last name but not Ganyu (Genshin Impact)? Why does Ganyu (Genshin Impact) have a qualifier but not Lisa Minci? It's not obvious why. It's easy to think that a tag like Lisa Minci isn't a Genshin character when she isn't named like the other characters.
At the moment the playable character split is around 40/60, but every class tag has _(elsword) tacked on them. If we count those tags, it becomes something like 7/93.
Did the math, as it is right now there are 8 characters with full names and 7 without.
Every character has (or will have, as announced) 13 classes tags (3 jobs * 4 paths + 1 base class). There will be in total 182 class tags with _(elsword) tacked in front of them, so that brings the split to 4/96 without counting NPCs.
One thing I forgot to mention is that we also have some precedent in using name shorthands instead of the full names, in order to appear in google searches. And as I previously mentioned, nobody searches for "Luciela Elsword".
JS2057 said:
I don't get this thread. Why is there such a huge opposition to the alias just cause people "Know" the full name, when it's made clear by others that most of the community as well as the company themselves use the nickname?
Clash of philosophies I guess, accessibility vs correct name. Danbooru has historically favoured full names over nicknames (and I don't think it's a bad thing), but recently the community has begun steering in a different direction, treating rules not as fixed rules, but more like general guidelines.
Updated
Username_Hidden said:
Clash of philosophies I guess, accessibility vs correct name. Danbooru has historically favoured full names over nicknames (and I don't think it's a bad thing), but recently the community has begun steering in a different direction, treating rules not as fixed rules, but more like general guidelines.
Yep: that's mostly why. A full name is present. This isn't like Genshin, which is hard to access.
And there's the simple fact that a change here isn't needed. There are plenty of tags that need to be changed, plenty of things to work on, and being this nitpicky feels irritating is all. The simple solution is to just use the alias which is already in place, so if people try to look up the character name the proper full name comes up. There's no reason why it should be changed when the solution is already being used.
I was debating on whether or not to answer to this forum post, since it would needlessly lengthen this discussion, but I'm currently bored enough to do just that.
I will start by ignoring every single one of your paragraphs except the last one, since that's how we're rolling.
And there's the simple fact that a change here isn't needed. There are plenty of tags that need to be changed, plenty of things to work on, and being this nitpicky feels irritating is all. The simple solution is to just use the alias which is already in place, so if people try to look up the character name the proper full name comes up. There's no reason why it should be changed when the solution is already being used.
You just changed Noah_(elsword) to Noah Ebalon.
Danbooru is built on nitpicking by design. I'm a nitpicker, you're a nitpicker, and everyone who writes on the forums is usually complaining about obscure tags.
I like how it is, because I can ask for input about something extremely specific and someone from the other side of the world can destroy me with logic and facts, and if I'm the one to complain about useless shit I can be sure that at least someone is listening to me.
None of us are free of sin.
Our time could be better spent elsewhere, but I enjoy nitpicking about inane things, and I assume you do too, otherwise we wouldn't be on page 2 of this thread.
But, I'll be honest with you. This is one of the best arguments I've ever heard. Not because it acts as counterargument, it just completely shuts down the discourse, because, after all, why bother?
Should we spend our time, sweat and tears on better-deserving tags? Absolutely, think of the children!
And with all of that said, I say: You are completely right, we shouldn't be discussing this. You find me in full agreement with you there: we should leave things as they have originally been made, free from nitpickers who think they can just make adjustments willy-nilly.
As such, I hereby discard my previous BUR and propose a reversal of the lu_(elsword) -> luciela_r._sourcream alias which was approved in topic #11322.
Reject modernity, embrace tradition.
Updated
Username_Hidden said:
I was debating on whether or not to answer to this forum post, since it would needlessly lengthen this discussion, but I'm currently bored enough to do just that.
I will start by ignoring every single one of your paragraphs except the last one, since that's how we're rolling.
You just changed Noah_(elsword) to Noah Ebalon.
Danbooru is built on nitpicking by design. I'm a nitpicker, you're a nitpicker, and everyone who writes on the forums is usually complaining about obscure tags.
I like how it is, because I can ask for input about something extremely specific and someone from the other side of the world can destroy me with logic and facts, and if I'm the one to complain about useless shit I can be sure that at least someone is listening to me.
None of us are free of sin.
Our time could be better spent elsewhere, but I enjoy nitpicking about inane things, and I assume you do too, otherwise we wouldn't be on page 2 of this thread.
But, I'll be honest with you. This is one of the best arguments I've ever heard. Not because it acts as counterargument, it just completely shuts down the discourse, because, after all, why bother?
Should we spend our time, sweat and tears on better-deserving tags? Absolutely, think of the children!
And with all of that said, I say: You are completely right, we shouldn't be discussing this. You find me in full agreement with you there: we should leave things as they have originally been made, free from nitpickers who think they can just make adjustments willy-nilly.
As such, I hereby discard my previous BUR and propose a reversal of the lu_(elsword) -> luciela_r._sourcream alias which was approved in topic #11322.
Reject modernity, embrace tradition.
I'm also really bored, glad we agree on that.
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, if you are then you made me chuckle a little so congratulations(?), but either way. This forum is getting boring, too, not much to really say here since you clearly agree with me now
The bulk update request #11109 (forum #216269) has been rejected by @DanbooruBot.
BUR #15539 has been approved by @evazion.
create implication second_dejection_(elsword) -> noah_ebalon
create implication hazy_delusion_(elsword) -> noah_ebalon
create implication morpheus_(elsword) -> noah_ebalon
create implication schatz_reprise_(elsword) -> ainchase_ishmael
create implication lofty:_schreier_(elsword) -> ainchase_ishmael
create implication bigott_(elsword) -> ainchase_ishmael
create alias opferung_(elsword) -> bigott_(elsword)
create implication rough_child_(elsword) -> laby_(elsword)
create implication punky_poppet_(elsword) -> laby_(elsword)
create implication twins_picaro_(elsword) -> laby_(elsword)
create implication soar_knight_(elsword) -> elesis_(elsword)
create implication patrona_(elsword) -> elesis_(elsword)
create implication adrestia_(elsword) -> elesis_(elsword)
New paths released.