Posted under General
So, following topic #18498 I was thinking why we even use the full name in this case.
The reason is very simple: The full name isn't what the character is known as for most users.
Therefore, it would more sense to use the most common name (Eula_(Genshin_Impact)) but have the full name aliased to it.
So, "alias Eula Lawrence -> Eula_(Genshin_Impact)".
It wouldn't be consistent (probably) but it's the most usable approach.
When I saw mona megistus I had no idea who that was. And I play the game.
The removing qualifiers BUR got rejected and I thought we would move forward with qualifying all Genshin characters. I dot see the need for a last name when we add the qualifier. and the qualifier gives you way more information than the last name ever could.
I'd be in favor of dropping the last names and adding qualifiers all around. Is not only consistent but it helps everyone, specially unfamiliar with the copyright to tag appropriately.
BUR #5688 has been approved by @evazion.
create alias barbara_pegg -> barbara_(genshin_impact)
create alias diluc_ragnvindr -> diluc_(genshin_impact)
create alias eula_lawrence -> eula_(genshin_impact)
create alias jean_gunnhildr -> jean_(genshin_impact)
create alias kaeya_alberich -> kaeya_(genshin_impact)
create alias lisa_minci -> lisa_(genshin_impact)
create alias mona_megistus -> mona_(genshin_impact)
create alias kamisato_ayaka -> ayaka_(genshin_impact)
Since Provence was lazy forgetful and didn't actually make a BUR I've gone and made it myself. Seeing as users can't vote on their own BURs, I'll say for the record that it gets a +1 from me.
I'm still in favour that full name should be preferable. I've had various cases of "I only know the first name of this japanese character" in other franchises that was simple enough to remedy by a quick search and then just remembering what the name is.
Why not alias them the other way around, in that case? Having a character's full name as the character tag when the full name is known is generally standard practice to my knowledge, so if the problem is "people might now know the last name of this character at first glance" then having "barbara_(genshin_impact)" redirect to barbara_pegg should work just fine.
Astolfo said:
Why not alias them the other way around, in that case? Having a character's full name as the character tag when the full name is known is generally standard practice to my knowledge, so if the problem is "people might now know the last name of this character at first glance" then having "barbara_(genshin_impact)" redirect to barbara_pegg should work just fine.
If you search for "eula" or "mona", eula (genshin impact) or mona (genshin impact) won't show up in the autocomplete, because eula_lawrence and mona_megistus are already shown, and the autocomplete system prevents aliases from being shown when the resolved tag is already displayed.
This behavior makes sense for most tags, but not for franchises like these, which are the most searched franchises on danbooru and they're franchises where the vast majority of people only know the first name. If I saw "mona megistus" in the autocomplete and I didn't know her already from uploading posts with her, I would never assume it was the character from genshin impact.
One option would be to always show aliases in the autocomplete, ie if you write "mona" you see "mona_(genshin_impact) -> mona_megistus", which is what happens if you write "mona_(" too, but then this would cause a lot of issues with those tags out there that have multiple aliases.
There's not a solution that will satisfy everyone unfortunately, but I think using the most popular name in these cases is the one that will satisfy the majority of users, especially those who don't even know we have a forum.
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Characters from League of Legends suffer from this as well. Some of them are borderline unsearchable due to them having first names that nobody has heard of, like Shauna Vayne and Malcolm Graves, both of which are simply named "Vayne" and "Graves" in-game.
It's nice to have full names, but it's also a detriment when only a tiny fraction of people know about them.
Zupi said:
Characters from League of Legends suffer from this as well. Some of them are borderline unsearchable due to them having first names that nobody has heard of, like Shauna Vayne and Malcolm Graves, both of which are simply named "Vayne" and "Graves" in-game.
It's nice to have full names, but it's also a detriment when only a tiny fraction of people know about them.
This is slightly unrelated but if you make a BUR for these, I'd support it as well!
I was against this, but after reading nonamethanks' posts, I changed my mind. In particular the issue about how aliases are displayed.
nonamethanks said:
If you search for "eula" or "mona", eula (genshin impact) or mona (genshin impact) won't show up in the autocomplete, because eula_lawrence and mona_megistus are already shown, and the autocomplete system prevents aliases from being shown when the resolved tag is already displayed.
This behavior makes sense for most tags, but not for franchises like these, which are the most searched franchises on danbooru and they're franchises where the vast majority of people only know the first name. If I saw "mona megistus" in the autocomplete and I didn't know her already from uploading posts with her, I would never assume it was the character from genshin impact.
One option would be to always show aliases in the autocomplete, ie if you write "mona" you see "mona_(genshin_impact) -> mona_megistus", which is what happens if you write "mona_(" too, but then this would cause a lot of issues with those tags out there that have multiple aliases.
There's not a solution that will satisfy everyone unfortunately, but I think using the most popular name in these cases is the one that will satisfy the majority of users, especially those who don't even know we have a forum.
Zupi said:
Characters from League of Legends suffer from this as well. Some of them are borderline unsearchable due to them having first names that nobody has heard of, like Shauna Vayne and Malcolm Graves, both of which are simply named "Vayne" and "Graves" in-game.
It's nice to have full names, but it's also a detriment when only a tiny fraction of people know about them.
Now that you mention it, I noticed that problem too. Maybe it would be better of LoL too, to use the most known name - if this BUR goes through.
Strong support on this BUR. It's not only about searching, it's also about uploading. You maybe have this problem for one time, when you have to look for a name you don't know. Same as NNT, I had to look up Mona Megistus, when it was changed. I do know "Mona", but I don't know if "Mona Megistus" is the correct name, so I have to look it up. This isn't a problem, but if you have to do it over and over again it's devastating. Someone who doesn't actively uploads images maybe won't understand this problem, but it's there and annoying.
On the other hand: I can understand, if fans of a game want the full name to be displayed instead of the qualifier, BUT Danbooru isn't a fan based site. It's for the average user so we have to find a solution which is good for everyone.
If something like what Astolfo proposed would work, I would be in favor of full-names instead of qualifiers.
As much as I find this BUR intuitively appealing, it goes against all precedent on this site. Danbooru has always used familyname_givenname chartags for characters with Japanese names and, quite frankly, this is a pain in the ass because 80% of the time people only know characters by their first name. If you can't remember a character's family name, then you have to search through the copyright tag and see what comes up, or search for *_givenname. This has always been expected of our users, and I've had to memorize tons of family names that I wouldn't have known otherwise just to be able to search for and tag them on this site.
Can I request hoshizora_rin -> rin_(love!_live!) just to make it easier for people to find her tag when they can't remember her family name? The same arguments made in this thread should apply: Love! Live! is a super popular copyright, and many people (such as myself) often probably can't remember that her name is Hoshizora Rin off the top of their heads–they just know her as Rin. This case is actually much worse than Eula, because typing *_rin into the search bar is completely useless if you don't remember her family name. It's even worse for less popular copyrights where less people know the last names of characters.
Genshin actually is much better in this regard then almost every other copyright here, because you can actually type eula and eula_lawrence comes up immediately as the top result.
A better argument is needed as to why Genshin should be treated differently than every other copyright, otherwise its a slippery slope to requesting souryuu_asuka_langley -> asuka_(evangelion) on the grounds that most users just know her as Asuka. We've always expected users to put in the very minimal effort required to figure out what the unfamiliar family name is for a character they know by their first name, why should Genshin be different?
Updated
CormacM said:
Genshin actually is much better in this regard then almost every other copyright here, because you can actually type eula and eula_lawrence comes up immediately as the top result.
A better argument is needed as to why Genshin should be treated differently than every other copyright, otherwise its a slippery slope to requesting souryuu_asuka_langley -> asuka_(evangelion) on the grounds that most users just know her as Asuka. We've always expected users to put in the very minimal effort required to figure out what the unfamiliar family name is for a character they know by their first name, why should Genshin be different?
Yeah, in Genshin's case (though that might change with Inazuma's Japanese aesthetic) most names are in a standard western order, which means typing in "mona" or "eula" immediately comes up with the proper tag - generally with like, three times as many posts as the next tag with the same first name (if there's even any at all.) The only cases I found where this wasn't the case were Lisa (because there's another Lisa with a fair amount of posts) and Jean (because the trillion Fate Jeanne d'Arcs appear before her.)
CormacM said:
As much as I find this BUR intuitively appealing, it goes against all precedent on this site. Danbooru has always used familyname_givenname chartags for characters with Japanese names and, quite frankly, this is a pain in the ass because 80% of the time people only know characters by their first name. If you can't remember a character's family name, then you have to search through the copyright tag and see what comes up, or search for *_givenname. This has always been expected of our users, and I've had to memorize tons of family names that I wouldn't have known otherwise just to be able to search for and tag them on this site.
Can I request hoshizora_rin -> rin_(love!_live!) just to make it easier for people to find her tag when they can't remember her family name? The same arguments made in this thread should apply: Love! Live! is a super popular copyright, and many people (such as myself) often probably can't remember that her name is Hoshizora Rin off the top of their heads–they just know her as Rin. This case is actually much worse than Eula, because typing *_rin into the search bar is completely useless if you don't remember her family name. It's even worse for less popular copyrights where less people know the last names of characters.
Genshin actually is much better in this regard then almost every other copyright here, because you can actually type eula and eula_lawrence comes up immediately as the top result.
A better argument is needed as to why Genshin should be treated differently than every other copyright, otherwise its a slippery slope to requesting souryuu_asuka_langley -> asuka_(evangelion) on the grounds that most users just know her as Asuka. We've always expected users to put in the very minimal effort required to figure out what the unfamiliar family name is for a character they know by their first name, why should Genshin be different?
The difference here is that in anime characters generally introduce themselves in the show, they refer to each other using both of their names, and tend to use names that can be extremely repetitive. In videogames characters need short and concise names, rarely have full names, and if they do they're barely even acknowledged, even by their own creators.
CormacM said:
As much as I find this BUR intuitively appealing, it goes against all precedent on this site. Danbooru has always used familyname_givenname chartags for characters with Japanese names and, quite frankly, this is a pain in the ass because 80% of the time people only know characters by their first name. If you can't remember a character's family name, then you have to search through the copyright tag and see what comes up, or search for *_givenname. This has always been expected of our users, and I've had to memorize tons of family names that I wouldn't have known otherwise just to be able to search for and tag them on this site.
We use standards to make the site more usable for everyone. Unfortunately gacha games are so immensely popular that our standards actively hurt the usability of the site if applied to the letter. We made exceptions for our romanization rules because they led us to absurd conclusions, and I think we'll have to make exceptions here too because the alternative is a net loss for us.
Gacha are not like anime or manga, where by definition you have to learn the story when you consume the source material, or even normal video games where there's still some lore thrown at your face. Often full names in gacha are relegated to some irrelevant note that most people don't even notice, and ultimately using them for our tags when most people only know these copyrights superficially confuses users both new and old.
nonamethanks said:
We use standards to make the site more usable for everyone. Unfortunately gacha games are so immensely popular that our standards actively hurt the usability of the site if applied to the letter. We made exceptions for our romanization rules because they led us to absurd conclusions, and I think we'll have to make exceptions here too because the alternative is a net loss for us.
Gacha are not like anime or manga, where by definition you have to learn the story when you consume the source material, or even normal video games where there's still some lore thrown at your face. Often full names in gacha are relegated to some irrelevant note that most people don't even notice, and ultimately using them for our tags when most people only know these copyrights superficially confuses users both new and old.
If we want to treat gacha as a fundamentally different type of media than anime and implement different naming conventions for gacha accordingly, then I'm not opposed to that (after all, I would be against blemishine_(arknights) -> maria_nearl or silverash_(arknights) -> enciodas_silverash). But at the very least this rule should be agreed upon once and for all and clearly stated, so we don't have more endless threads like this (topic #18498, topic #18464, topic #18197, topic #18046, topic #17785).
For reference (forum #180324):
evazion said:
My general attitude is that we should be consistent within a copyright:
- If most characters in a copyright need to be qualified, we should qualify all of them.
- If most characters in a copyright use only their first name, we should do that for all of them. Especially if their full name isn't well known or isn't normally used in-game.
If this is the rule, then we never should've had Eula Lawrence in the first place
CormacM said:
If this is the rule, then we never should've had Eula Lawrence in the first place
Yeah, I didn't have a strong stance about this but seeing today's topic that I've linked in the opening post, it seems clear to me that using the full name isn't that practical.
Sometimes you have to run into such issues and then you can see the bigger picture.
CormacM said:
For reference (forum #180324):
If this is the rule, then we never should've had Eula Lawrence in the first place
The problem is that it's not the rule, it's just what we've started doing. We don't actually have "rules" for this, just guidelines like howto:character, which contradicts many of our recent decisions. If we're gonna keep moving in this direction and treating gacha games differently, then we should update those things to reflect it.
I'm opposed to this, mostly because this both ignores the fundamental flaw and actually works to retain it. Eula_(Genshin_Impact) is already aliased to Eula Lawrence and that should have resolved this, the fact that it is not shows that there is a critical flaw in the current autocomplete/recommendation system and that this flaw needs to be fixed.
Instead of putting pressure to fix this, the approach being pushed is designed to relieve pressure on the current broken system and will only serve to discourage fixing it because it's not a pressing matter. This only sets precedent that because the current autocomplete/recommendation system fails to properly make these shorthand to full name recommendations that going forward it will only encourage further usage of the common shorthand for naming to play within the bounds of the broken system.
Updated
I'm going to bring topic #17094 for consideration, since it seems relevant to the discourse.
Strong +1 for me. Definitely makes it easier for people to search and for uploaders to tag.
CormacM said:
Can I request hoshizora_rin -> rin_(love!_live!) just to make it easier for people to find her tag when they can't remember her family name? [snip]
(I constantly run into this problem with Touhou characters, by the way)
The usual answer is that two (three?) years ago, the autocomplete used to show up the full name even if you searched for only the first name. Then the autocomplete algorithm got changed, and the feature got lost. If the algorithm were to be changed again, the problem would probably be fixed.
