tag alias for subjective tags

i would like to suggest aliasing the most common subjective tags listed in tag group:subjective to something like don't_ever_use_this_tag or read_the_tagging_guidelines_please!!! or something to that effect that will catch the attention of the tagger and force/alert him not to use such thing.

my reason is that the cleaning process will likely take place in the original tagger's part than waiting for a tag gardener. a provocative alias will likely force him to be more careful next time and learn other tags to refrain from using.

and there are also many subjective tags. so checking them one by one consumes quite some time too. if they are aliased, we need to check just one.

i know it's stated before that we're avoiding creating aliases with zero or little posts. however, i noticed kawaii is aliased to cute. so maybe, just maybe, we could make an exception since this is something that will enforce our policy to taggers (inexperienced or careless).

just a suggestion. thanks.

Sounds both hilarious and effective, and it's much easier to weed through a single aliased tag than going down the list of subjective tags.

Maybe as a qualifier, cute_(don't_use_this_tag)

It's too confusing if the name disappears, they won't know what triggered it.

parasol said:
Maybe as a qualifier, cute_(don't_use_this_tag)

It's too confusing if the name disappears, they won't know what triggered it.

It'd require adding an alias to every tag in the subjective tag group, but it'll hopefully help teach new/inexperienced taggers which tags not to use.
Although, if someone where to notice the tag in the first place, they'd probably end up clicking it to learn why, and they could see the list of tags.

In my experience most people don't look at tags after they've posted an image so no amount of aliases would discourage them from using subjective tags.

They might notice the tag on another image while they browse the site, though.

Log said:
In my experience most people don't look at tags after they've posted an image

probably and i believe too, all because we expect to see the same as what we had typed. however, if they see something as alarming as _read_the_fucking_manual!!! at the very top of the list, i think there will be a different reaction. this is not a perfect solution but hopefully it will minimize using subjective tags and the gardening process.

i assume new members (uploaders) will likely use minimum tags, probably tagme and something easily they could type yet descriptive enough like cute. this is where i feel the aliasing works best. if the tag list is short, there's a higher chance the provocative alias to get noticed. so much more if it's listed on top by affixing an underscore before the tag name.

tagme is just tagme. but if cute turns to something 'awful' like _read_the_fucking_manual!!!, curiousity will probably hit them why the tag cute is missing. the wiki definition will be the same in the tag group:subjective and thus hopefully increase their awareness on similar tags.

in cases where the aliasing didn't 'jolt' the tagger, it's still beneficial for the gardener because he just need to check one tag than going through the cycle of 14 tags.

another solution probably is an automated personal mail. if one member uses one subjective tag, he'll get a message something like the Auto-notice: Wrong pixiv source (manga sample). i remember getting one from RaisingK before. so this might be applicable here too.

however, this is merely a suggestion. thanks.

+1 for the general idea of aliasing subjective tags together.

I also particularly like the name _read_the_fucking_manual!!!

EDIT:

[forum #69625]
Log said:
That's absurd, how would the user even know what tag they used that was amiguious unless they memorized the tags they typed?

In that case, I'll amend my opinion:

I would rather have an implication to _read_the_fucking_manual!!!.

That way, this happens...

• If someone uses cute, it goes to the tag history, alongside _read_the_fucking_manual!!!.
• (AFAIK, if cute was aliased to _read_the_fucking_manual!!!, only the latter would be present at the tag history and nobody would ever know which subjective tag was typed in the first place.)
• And, very conveniently, both cute and _read_the_fucking_manual!!! will be present as tags of the infringing post until cute is removed.
• (If someone tries to remove only _read_the_fucking_manual!!! while keeping cute, it will fail.)

uhm, an implication is nice too. however, i initially suggested an alias as it decreases the potential number of tags for gardening. it's like there's one giant cesspool tag for the major subjective ones. this is hopefully beneficial to both the uploader/tagger and the gardener.

the provocative tag name, as something vulgar, will hopefully arouse the tagger's curiosity to click it. the wiki should be straight, nothing fancy, and list directly the prohibited tags. there's 14 of them, and in case they typed cute, it should be easy to spot.

or in case the user didn't click the '?' and instead the _read_the_fucking_manual!!! tag itself, we could have an uploaded absurdres image version of the wiki at tag group:subjective. all points of exit are covered.

if the intention of the implication is to help the user to be aware of the subjective tag without removing what they type, this is nice. but the alias could address this too as stated above. the only negative effect of an implication is there are at least two tags to remove instead of one. two tags instead of one if one could do is additional labor.

Danielx21 said:

• (If someone tries to remove only _read_the_fucking_manual!!! while keeping cute, it will fail.)

however, with implication, attempting removing _read_the_fucking_manual!!! and not cute will still produce a positive result. since this is implication, you can't and never remove _read_the_fucking_manual!!! without removing cute too.

so, overall, both solutions have pros and cons. but i would settle for anything what the community decides. and there's also the automated personal mail too. so we have actually, 3 solutions by now.

EDIT: corrected some wording.

EDIT2 (2011-12-16): i've been thinking and realized another good point of an implication. if the uploader/tagger used one of the most common subjective tags by accident the tags list will return the subjective tag (ex. cute) and !!!_read_the_f*_manual!!! - the two of them. however, if the uploader/tagger deliberately used the latter tag for whatever reasons the tags list will result the consequent tag alone, in this case, !!!_read_the_f*_manual!!!. the presence of this very tag without the most common subjective tags would warn the approving party that the user is doing something mischievous and should earn him a warning or possibly an outright ban. remember, there's no way he could learn about this tag. it's like an easter egg of danbooru.

with an alias, only one tag is saved. we always assume that this will be triggered by accident. but if done deliberately, there's no way to prove aside from many overwhelmingly multiple occurrences in a user's tag history. not sure if that will help or even worth considering though.

There's a King of Fighters character named "mature", so be careful with that one.

ghostrigger said:
in cases where the aliasing didn't 'jolt' the tagger, it's still beneficial for the gardener because he just need to check one tag than going through the cycle of 14 tags.

If they have qualifiers you can search for *_(don't_use_this_tag)

listed on top by affixing an underscore before the tag name.

That trick doesn't work at the moment. (post #23612 is tagged _summer, for example.)

parasol said:
That trick doesn't work at the moment. (post #23612 is tagged _summer, for example.)

I tested this by typing _summer, with the initial underscore, as a tag of post #23612. Insterestingly, the new tag did appear at the top of the list, but the underscore had vanished and the link went to summer instead. It was weird. (Then I reversed the change, by readding summer without an underscore and thereby immediately fixing the alphabetical order.)

While doing some other temporary quick tests, I also discovered that //read_the_fucking_manual!!!, with two initial bars, would appear at the top of the list of tags of a post, even before 1girl, ^_^ or /\/\/\.

Danielx21 said:
Insterestingly, the new tag did appear at the top of the list, but the underscore had vanished

It's still there, just displayed as a space.

Looks like I spoke too soon - new tag edits do put underscores near the top of the list. Oops.

I guess tag order is cached, so we're sometimes seeing the old rules. Interesting.

parasol said:
If they have qualifiers you can search for *_(don't_use_this_tag)

i'm fine with adding qualifiers, if this will be helpful. it's descriptive but the number of tags to check didn't decrease. like Shintear said, this will require adding an alias to every tag in the subjective tag group. if there are 14 tags then we will have 14 aliases to check. this will be beneficial to the inexperienced/careless uploader/tagger only but not the gardener.

That trick doesn't work at the moment. (post #23612 is tagged _summer, for example.)

i tested this myself. post #64223 has _summer (copyright) as the first tag. underscore precedes any letter in the alphabet. though you can't see the underscore, clicking the link and checking the tag history reveals it's listed first than any a-z word.

however, as Danielx21 reveals, its weakness is if there's a tag that begins with a number (post #23612). though, it's still near the top.

EDIT: curiosity reveals to me about ascii values

the nearest we could get is to use the exclamation mark as it has a lower ascii value. so whatever that provocative tag be, we should affix it with triple !!! like !!!_read_the_fucking_manual!!!

ghostrigger said:
post #64223 has _summer (copyright) as the first tag.

Interesting. I created forum #70341 about the distinction between _summer/summer.

ghostrigger said:
the nearest we could get is to use the exclamation mark as it has a lower ascii value. so whatever that provocative tag be, we should affix it with triple !!! like !!!_read_the_fucking_manual!!!

When a post has these tags, they appear exactly in this order:

1. !
2. !!
3. !!!_read_the_fucking_manual!!!
4. !!!read_the_fucking_manual!!!
5. !?
6. $
7. ...
8. //read_the_fucking_manual!!!
9. 1girl
10. ?

(Here are the same tags in running text copyable to any post: ! !! !!!_read_the_fucking_manual!!! !!!read_the_fucking_manual!!! !? $ ... //read_the_fucking_manual!!! 1girl ? )

One obvious result is that no tag can appear above the single exclamation point. (unless someone can refute this)

You seem to be right about "the nearest we could get [...]", though.

Subjective tags aren't actually a problem right now, so such drastic measures aren't required.

As mentioned, most members don't actually look at the tags no matter how provocative you make it. //read_the_fucking_manual!!! is just plain unprofessional, what were you thinking?

No matter what you alias it to, there's still a useless tag on posts that needs to be removed. People will be confused, not knowing how the tag got there and even the editor won't know what happened to his tags. What's the benefit from being insulted by a tag?

okay, i did not mean to offend anyone here. the use of _read_the_fucking_manual!!! is just an example i used in the middle of this thread to emphasize catching the attention of the tagger. it's not something that's decided. besides, if we convert the initialism of RTFM it's one of the most popular variants similar to any meme. if you have spend enough time in the internet, you probably read this somewhere already. if the word fucking is too harsh we could of course use flaming/friendly/full or anything more "civil" like the ones i posted at the very first post.

i have no malice in using the word fucking and didn't mean to insult anyone. so i apologize for misunderstanding. i thought it's already natural here using 'insults' as i see it even in comments, forum threads, and even in user records issued by higher personalities (some are even harsher like arsehole, criminal stupidity, fuck off, etc). and just look at the sticky in the forum about Useful threads index:

Read this before posting on the forum you dumb jerks.
Civility on the forum. TL;DR: Don't call people dumb jerks!

every visitor of the forum is greeted by this message and nobody seems to mind. the fact that's it's a sticky and the first post in bold letters gives it more emphasis than everything else. besides the word fucking manual is not an insult directed to the person. it's not an insult at all. the alias didn't insult anyone. that's professionalism. that's more professional than those high-ranking members insulting lowly members or even fellow high-ranking members.

S1eth said:
Subjective tags aren't actually a problem right now, so such drastic measures aren't required.

i wouldn't mind if this alias didn't push through. it's merely one of the suggestions to at least aid a gardener in checking lesser tags and enforcing a new user to read the manual. the fact that even after 1 week grace period, users still commit mistakes, necessitates the need for something like this. just read the user records page. i think this is better than issuing neutral/negative records every now and then. instead of being too passive, the alias measure is both preventive and pre-emptive because there's a likelihood the user will correct himself automatically. it wouldn't hurt if we add an additional layer for policing. besides there's also the automated personal mail as an alternate suggestion too.

if he didn't correct himself, a gardener's job is lessened still because one tag now just needs to be checked. is this too much to ask if this solution will likely (hopefully) address and solve 2 problems?

besides, this alias should actually never ever accumulate multitude of posts like long_hair. it should not be used at all like the alias kawaii -> cute

People will be confused, not knowing how the tag got there and even the editor won't know what happened to his tags.

the final name of the alias would address that, that's why i suggested a provocative one. you could suggest a !!!_read_me tag. people will not be 'confused' if they bothered reading the manuals in their first week grace period. someone reading the tagging guidelines should never see this tag at all. a tag like !!!_read_me would hopefully invite them to read our guidelines as our final attempt/defense.

and this statement of yours, somewhat contradicts Log's assumption that most users don't even bother checking what they typed. the fact they are 'confused', as you say, means they are reading the tag list and they do mind correcting what they typed. the goal of the alias is to alert them and click the tag and read the wiki. so i don't see the confusion and the editor won't know what happened to his tags. the alias covers 14 tags. one should be easy to spot.

again, i did not mean to introduce malice here, only solution. i apologize for misunderstanding. thanks.

ghostrigger said:
people will not be 'confused' if they bothered reading the manuals in their first week grace period. someone reading the tagging guidelines should never see this tag at all. a tag like !!!_read_me would hopefully invite them to read our guidelines as our final attempt/defense.

Most ambiguous tags I know are indeed completely empty (i.e. not used in any post), as expected. But, sometimes, people do use them. For instance, one recent image is now tagged ecchi and sexy.

I think having that one post tagged !!!_read_me (or even !!!read_the_fucking_manual!!! as I personally don't mind that name) to draw attention would be helpful, as explained by ghostrigger.

Moreover, in my opinion it would be even better if we had dozens of implications for all sorts of ambiguous tags, to list the posts together in one place to be cleaned up eventually.

Examples of possible implications to "!!!_read_me":

• ecchi -> !!!_read_me
• sexy -> !!!_read_me
• kyo -> !!!_read_me
• kakeru -> !!!_read_me
• sawa -> !!!_read_me
• alicia -> !!!_read_me
• jun -> !!!_read_me
• ghoul -> !!!_read_me
• su -> !!!_read_me
• alice -> !!!_read_me

All the existing tags listed above are described as "ambiguous" in their wikis but have at least one post.

The last one (alice) is especially described as "Currently used for any character named Alice who's full name is not currently known or who does not currently have a qualifier tag.", so apparently it's expected to continue being used indefinitely despite being ambiguous.

I kind of agree with sleth, while the idea is sound, the type of user who is apt to use a tag like "cute" is probably not the type to pay much attention to something like this.

it's not a bad idea I just... don't know if it'd help.

jxh2154 said:
I kind of agree with sleth, while the idea is sound, the type of user who is apt to use a tag like "cute" is probably not the type to pay much attention to something like this.

it's not a bad idea I just... don't know if it'd help.

About this issue, I agree with these ghostrigger's words:

ghostrigger said:
in cases where the aliasing didn't 'jolt' the tagger, it's still beneficial for the gardener because he just need to check one tag than going through the cycle of 14 tags.

Relatedly, isn't banned artist helpful? Its role as an implicated list of posts with forbidden tags is basically the same as !!!_read_me, only with:

• a different focus (banned artists, instead of ambiguous tags)
• the additional task of listing forbidden posts (because AFAICT forbidden author tags mark forbidden posts) and
• a more explanatory name. (banned artist is more intuitive, albeit less visible, than !!!_read_me)

ok, it seems the suggestions here will be shelved eventually. however, i hope, maybe in the future, the discussion transpired here can be used or be instrumental in solving problems of much greater scale. it's comforting enough that the idea itself was called sound and not bad at all.

i was browsing again for subjective tags and discovered boring (used in the past) and awful (just recently). they're not included in the list yet and i can't think of a solution addressing tags of lesser frequency like them.

and regarding users/taggers not paying much attention to tag transformation it really depends and we can't generalized with absolute certainty. but i'm quite sure users (even inexperienced ones) don't type blindly. most likely they don't pay much attention to the tag count and numbers but they do mind the tag name - and they do mind to see that exactly.

and regarding giving 'jolt', i think this particular user wouldn't mind the 'shock of his life' as we are just giving a milder dose of his own medicine when he used