alias symbol-only_commentary -> untranslatable_commentary

BUR #54216 has been approved by @nonamethanks.

create alias symbol-only_commentary -> untranslatable_commentary

Every time this tag is brought up it's a constant war of people trying to argue whether hashtag commentaries and links count, and then making another subtag for the edge case that doesn't fit.

What are we even doing here? forum #192335. The purpose of this tag is to exclude commentaries that can't or shouldn't be translated. But I open this tag and it's full of shit like post #10708669.

nonamethanks said in forum #416211:

But I open this tag and it's full of shit like post #10708669.

That post just seems like a straight up incorrect tag unrelated to any of the controversies around symbol-only commentary. There's a bunch of translatable text in there.

I don't think this rename fixes anything. If a post's commentary is a heart symbol and a non-English hashtag, is that untranslatable commentary? It's the exact same question of whether hashtags can/should be translated and whether they "count" as part of the commentary, and we'll have the exact same arguments about it.

Also to me untranslatable commentary implies something more like non-English gibberish commentary than symbol-only commentary. I don't consider an emoji "untranslatable"; there just isn't anything to translate.

The point of this tag is to exclude posts from searches like commentary request. Nobody's going to danbooru and thinking "give me all commentaries made exactly of symbols, hashtags and links, but without gibberish"

This tag is a retarded builder's dream of how we use tags.

Obligatory mention of topic #25867, topic #31197

nonemouse said in forum #416218:

That post just seems like a straight up incorrect tag unrelated to any of the controversies around symbol-only commentary. There's a bunch of translatable text in there.

I don't think this rename fixes anything. If a post's commentary is a heart symbol and a non-English hashtag, is that untranslatable commentary? It's the exact same question of whether hashtags can/should be translated and whether they "count" as part of the commentary, and we'll have the exact same arguments about it.

Despite the lack of clear consensus there does seem to be a preference to counting hashtags as links (that should be left alone) and not as text (that should be translated). See my previous replies in those topics as well as forum #416194, and the linked reply by evazion in forum #192335. I've also seen other people express this opinion but I will leave it to them to do so again.

BUR #54218 has been rejected.

create alias symbol-only_commentary -> commentary

If the tag doesn't provide value (which I mostly agree with), maybe getting rid of it entirely is better than creating a slightly broader useless tag?

BUR #54220 has been rejected.

create alias hashtag-only_commentary -> untranslatable_commentary

If BUR #54216 goes through, hashtag-only commentary should probably go the same way as per forum #192335. Mainly posting this BUR so it doesn't get forgotten and left in a half broken state again.

Relevant queries to look at: hashtag-only_commentary commentary:translated (commentary search page), hashtag-only_commentary commentary_request (commentary search page)

That's the problem, it's not something you can easily search. Some builders have got it into their head that they can just script this, ignoring the fact that hashtag commentaries can have jokes that could be translated (such as extremely long hashtags), or fake links. The result is a completely useless tag.

nonamethanks said in forum #416227:

That's the problem, it's not something you can easily search. Some builders have got it into their head that they can just script this, ignoring the fact that hashtag commentaries can have jokes that could be translated (such as extremely long hashtags), or fake links. The result is a completely useless tag.

This has always been the problem. IMO, cases like that are served well by [tn][/tn], which would prevent the issue of modifying links, with the added benefit that you Don'tHaveToDealWithWeirdSpacingLimitationsThatJustLookWeird. Problem is some common sense because "translate hashtags" returns us to the problem of having commentaries that are just "#Arknights #Arknights #Arknights".

nonamethanks said in forum #416227:

That's the problem, it's not something you can easily search. Some builders have got it into their head that they can just script this, ignoring the fact that hashtag commentaries can have jokes that could be translated (such as extremely long hashtags), or fake links. The result is a completely useless tag.

So what's your solution then? Deprecate the tag and then just shunt the posts into commentary or commentary request as needed? When should translators decide to not bother with translating the hashtags and just change the metatags on the post?

ANON_TOKYO said in forum #416225:

BUR #54220 has been rejected.

create alias hashtag-only_commentary -> untranslatable_commentary

If BUR #54216 goes through, hashtag-only commentary should probably go the same way as per forum #192335. Mainly posting this BUR so it doesn't get forgotten and left in a half broken state again.

I really don't get why you are always so against hashtags getting translated. The whole interface makes it clear when the commentary is translated and users can hover over the link to know where they are going too. Also to begin with, have you even heard other people bring up the same point that hashtags being translated is misleading? How many people even click hashtags in commentaries for it to be such a sticking point for you?

Alixiron said in forum #416248:
Also to begin with, have you even heard other people bring up the same point that hashtags being translated is misleading?

I agree with ANON_TOKYO on this subject.

In cases where the links are translated, it becomes unclear where a link is leading: post #8304794 is translated to say "#Amiya #Amiya #Arknights" but one Amiya is アーミヤ and one Amiya is 阿米娅.

Alixiron said in forum #416248:

The whole interface makes it clear when the commentary is translated and users can hover over the link to know where they are going too.

On a desktop or laptop, sure. But it wouldn't be as easy on mobile. Also, if you have two or three hashtags that look identical, it makes it more cumbersome to find the specific one you want because you can't distinguish them at a glance.

On the other hand, most of our userbase are English speakers and can recognize #Arknights easily even if they don't know what it means, but would not be able to read #明日方舟, #アークナイツ, or #명일방주. It is ridiculous to have two "Amiya" hashtags on post #8304794, but it's still easier for the average user to understand than #アーミヤ and #阿米娅.

Hmm, if only there was an easy way to toggle back to the untranslated commentary to see what the hashtags originally were… probably too much to hope for, beyond danbooru's capabilities.

If we're bringing up the mobile interface argument, there are a whole lot of poorly optimized features on mobile but perhaps the most annoying one to me is trying to figure out the exact date a post was uploaded. Second-most annoying is the pop-up window for the commentary translation always being bigger than the width of the device I'm viewing it on. But I digress, one of these days I need to log in to github and submit these as issues.

I'm downvoting the alias hashtag-only_commentary -> untranslatable_commentary proposal because I don't understand why they should be deemed untranslatable, sometimes those hashtag can unlock useful information through their translation.
However I do agree that translating the link text directly can lead to confusing results, so use of [tn][/tn] should be encouraged in those cases.

As a side note, I found the rationale presented in this thread extremely hard to follow, so it took me hours to contemplate and decide which way to vote. I think the BURs would have a better chance if the reasoning was explained more clearly and in one place.

Alixiron said in forum #416248:

I really don't get why you are always so against hashtags getting translated.

Because web navigation should be clear and follow expected standards. Translating hashtags breaks those expectations by linking to something that isn't shown in the text.

The whole interface makes it clear when the commentary is translated ...

Except it doesn't. We can have "#Amiya #Amiya #Amiya" with all three pointing to a different place and only one being translated.

... and users can hover over the link to know where they are going too.

But they shouldn't need to, it should be visually apparent wherever possible. For the same reason external links have that little icon next to them, while internal links don't.

Putting translations in [tn][/tn] tags is a perfectly fine solution in my opinion, barring some DText syntax to add translations to hashtags akin to TPT (I think this would be cool actually). Not to mention, the long hashtags that are definitely worth translating are better served by this anyway, SinceYouAren'tRestrictedToHashtagCompatibleFormatting (something which the original Japanese doesn't suffer from). It'd just be a cleaner solution.

ANON_TOKYO said in forum #416340:

We can have "#Amiya #Amiya #Amiya" with all three pointing to a different place and only one being translated.

I remember, back in the day, when I was a bit stupider and fixing the Girls' Frontline commentaries due to the ' being added (topic #18673), for a select few commentaries I translated them and included ([language]) next to them, ala post #3501614.

I imagine there's other posts like this elsewhere where someone decided to go "oh, I'm going to translate this link, but it's fine because I made sure to indicate what language it actually was".

"Untranslatable" is just a bad use of language. It literally means, "cannot translate", and not "there's nothing to translate". This confusing use of language is always going to trip me up, and likely to trip up other users as well.

bipface said in forum #416272:

I'm downvoting the alias hashtag-only_commentary -> untranslatable_commentary proposal because I don't understand why they should be deemed untranslatable, sometimes those hashtag can unlock useful information through their translation.
However I do agree that translating the link text directly can lead to confusing results, so use of [tn][/tn] should be encouraged in those cases.

As a side note, I found the rationale presented in this thread extremely hard to follow, so it took me hours to contemplate and decide which way to vote. I think the BURs would have a better chance if the reasoning was explained more clearly and in one place.

Translatable hashtags that contain useful commentary should be translated, yes. The problem is that instead of having a sane system where we have "this commentary is translated", "this commentary is not yet translated", and "this commentary doesn't need to be translated", for the third option we came up with these deranged tags that don't actually serve as an alternative, just some autoscriptable padding that doesn't make any search easier and fragments what results we have. Nobody is specifically searching for hashtag commentaries or symbol-only commentaries, and these tags don't help filter out useless commentaries because they were mindlessly populated and stuff that should be translated was thrown in without a thought. It's a really bad system.

The bulk update request #54216 (forum #416211) has been approved by @nonamethanks.