Danbooru

Arknights Elite II

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BUR #17064 has been approved by @nonamethanks.

deprecate elite_ii_(arknights)

With the decision to get rid of the Remodel tag from Kantai Collection, it's long past time to raise the notion that was already brought up two years ago. elite_ii_(arknights) is Arknight's version of the tag. There're still users occasionally gardening more images into it.

It's actually worse than KC or AL because a lot of the gardening is going to characters who don't actually change clothes when promoted, like post #5694692, but just take off their jacket.

Username_Hidden said:

I'm not really a fan of this tbh, there are some like ptilopsis (arknights) who have a very distinct Elite II outfit, and searches like ptilopsis_(arknights) thigh_boots remove portrait artworks from the search.
Yeah, we could make Elite II character tags, but is there no alternative?

If your question is "How do I search for pictures of best AK birb's promotion costume?", well you already can't do that properly. ptilopsis_(arknights) elite_ii_(arknights) includes results like post #3907506 and post #3923643. This tag is the alternative to making costume tags and it's clearly worse.

If you're gonna say that it's "a very distinct outfit", why are we not just making a costume tag? "very distinct" things are exactly what tags are for!

Username_Hidden said:

I'm not really a fan of this tbh, there are some like ptilopsis (arknights) who have a very distinct Elite II outfit, and searches like ptilopsis_(arknights) thigh_boots remove portrait artworks from the search.
Yeah, we could make Elite II character tags, but is there no alternative?

Despite someone persistently populating the tag for two years, there are still untagged posts of Ptilopsis' E2 outfit. Making character tags for the handful of characters that actually warrant it is more reliable, and without the issue of people polluting them with characters that just remove an article of clothing.

I am similarly not a big fan of this change (being the sole downvoter of the BUR). It makes the concept of elite ii (rather than the actual outfits) untaggable, while also making it much more difficult to search for all elite ii arts (there are currently 262 characters with elite ii arts, and even if they all had costume tags that would exceed wildcard searches' 100 tag limit). Parodies like post #5775914 can't be tagged now, because it makes no sense to have an elite ii outfit tag for that character. Most elite ii outfits don't have significant distinctions from their base outfits (like post #3563872), which means you have to pick between not tagging them (which makes more sense, as they are not distinctive, but makes them unsearchable vs what we had before), or making what will essentially be single-post tags as there is no way to differentiate the base outfit and elite ii outfit if the artist doesn't specifically draw the elite ii effects, which they often do not.

I think the problem is the conflation of the style of elite ii art, vs the actual costumes that come with it. I think it's a fine idea to have costume tags for them, since lumping them all into the elite ii tag kind of dilutes its purpose, but not having a tag for the concept at all now just seems like a wholly worse option than what we previously had. I guess we could just have a pool for the actual elite ii portraits and parodies, but I'm not sure how that's an improvement, especially given the recent pushes to convert more 'concrete' concepts from pools into tags.

I'm not familiar with the other games mentioned here, though I am a little bit more familiar with the another game that got similar treatment as a result of this thread, that being Girls' Frontline. Assuming AL and KC follow more in the style of GFL then I can understand those games not needing such an umbrella tag since those are effectively just costume tags, where, outside of the scope of the game, there isn't really anything that makes them similar. They're just from the same source of unlock, and to outside observers may just look like any other costume tag. Arknights' elite iis, on the other hand, have a distinctive style to them.

blindVigil said:

About time. It's basically just official art tag padding most of the time.

Official art applies to much more than just elite ii. That much should be obvious. It's not an ideal way to search for them.

The idea that a tag should not exist because the people populating it have not done a perfect job is rather baffling. You can apply that to virtually every tag on the site. The fact that someone was at least putting the effort in to do some gardening should indicate that at least some people do actually care about it.

While I don't know what to say when it comes to the wildcard search results, when it comes to the style parodies, there is technically the option of making a tag specifically for such parodies, with the key example here being Cinderella Girls card parody. Something like arknights_elite_parody or similar (accounting for the weirdos who'd make an Elite I of all things) would probably make sense to lump posts which mimic the style of Elite IIs.

BobTheBuilder_v1 said:

official style + copytag.

That doesn't really seem adequate at all given these types of games generally do not have a "style" as they commission many different artists to work on it.

Damian0358 said:

While I don't know what to say when it comes to the wildcard search results, when it comes to the style parodies, there is technically the option of making a tag specifically for such parodies, with the key example here being Cinderella Girls card parody. Something like arknights_elite_parody or similar (accounting for the weirdos who'd make an Elite I of all things) would probably make sense to lump posts which mimic the style of Elite IIs.

That would still exclude the actual official ones from being easily found.

Stelle said:

That doesn't really seem adequate at all given these types of games generally do not have a "style" as they commission many different artists to work on it.

Arknights undoubtedly has a "style", if you look across all of its various designs they generally look coherent and complementary to its atmosphere. And the artists they commission all draw in the same adjacent styles, at least for their commissioned works. Another good example of coherent designs is Blue Archive (they've redesigned several characters to this end) but I'm unsure what percentage of their work is done in-house.

BobTheBuilder_v1 said:

Arknights undoubtedly has a "style", if you look across all of its various designs they generally look coherent and complementary to its atmosphere. And the artists they commission all draw in the same adjacent styles, at least for their commissioned works. Another good example of coherent designs is Blue Archive (they've redesigned several characters to this end) but I'm unsure what percentage of their work is done in-house.

Yeah, I guess that's correct. I'm thinking more art style than overarching themes. But in either case that's irrelevant to the topic at hand—it's not really a suitable alternative for this specific thing. Something like post #4270263 could fit into that as well.

Stelle said:

That would still exclude the actual official ones from being easily found.

There are so many better sites if you want to specifically look at official E2 art. Though I am surprised there isn't a pool for official character portraits, like pool #13651. I guess feel free to make one.

For Elite II parody art, though, I would support a tag, or pool, like what Damian suggested.

BobTheBuilder_v1 said:

Arknights undoubtedly has a "style", if you look across all of its various designs they generally look coherent and complementary to its atmosphere. And the artists they commission all draw in the same adjacent styles, at least for their commissioned works. Another good example of coherent designs is Blue Archive (they've redesigned several characters to this end) but I'm unsure what percentage of their work is done in-house.

"Cohesive designs" (not exactly what you said but I know it's what you meant) is not the same as having an actual singular style. There are still distinct differences in artstyle between artists that have worked for Arknights. I can look through my operator list right now and easily pick out characters that were very obviously not drawn by the same people, much less in the same artstyle.

Official style is for artstyle imitation, not just something that wouldn't look out of place if put together with the official art. It's for things like post #5230644, and it wouldn't catch things that don't actually resemble Arknights' "style" despite imitating the Elite II look even if it could be applied here.

I think the conflict that's emerging right now post-BUR is the question of "under what circumstance was the Elite II tag allowed to exist?".

And based on what I recall from past discussions here on the forum, and elsewhere, the tag was clearly allowed to exist specifically because of the precedent set by Kantai Collection. Elite II (and the brief period Elite I existed) were treated in the same way as KanColle's Remodels, Azur Lane's Retrofits, Warship Girls' Remodels, GFL's MOD3s, Touken Ranbu's Kiwame, etc. - distinct achievable forms that strengthen the given character and in turn pair said form with new art, with those forms being added overtime - and anyone who actually knows Arknights would be already aware how wrong of a comparison that is. 4* and above operators in Arknights have the ability to access Elite II by default.

I know you're complaining on how it is hard to actually find the official art of Elite II units now, but fundamentally, thinking of usual Danbooru tagging procedures, had the full context of Elite II been known to all, I don't think it would've been allowed to exist under Remodel rules in the first place. Part of the reason why the Remodel-style general tags existed was because there was a guarantee that the person in that art would look different from their default (for the most part - see forum #203985 for an example), but that ultimately led to the question of "how do you distinguish between someone who is remodeled in a post if they are with someone that isn't", which ultimately led to the breakdown of those tags, especially to make it easier to find characters' default designs, as they've since been overshadowed by their remodeled forms. Meanwhile, as has been mentioned so far, there's nothing that guarantees a character will look different with their Elite II, and the approach that's increasingly taking hold on site is "if the character has multiple distinct versions in their source material, then each version should get its own tag", that leaves Elite II in a bit of a pickle.

Ignoring all the flourishes the official art may have, Elite II art can be divided in three categories: a) completely new look; b) variation on current look; c) completely same look. Those under a) would have to get their own tags, and c) would not, but b) becomes an iffy point. Mudrock is the perfect example of this - fundamentally, her Elite II art is just partially removing her suit, revealing what she actually looks like. If you were to ask any other Danbooru tagger on site, they'd be telling you that making a tag for that is preposterous, because it's just her without her suit on. The only ones who wouldn't react like that would be the Fate/Grand Order taggers, and that's only because they tag the default appearance distinctly too.

In fact, when it comes to valid comparisons, F/GO is way closer to Arknights - First/Second/Third Ascension are the closest parallel to Elite 0/Elite 1/Elite 2 on site, being a core feature available to all servants, with each ascension giving art and designs. But because they were a core universal feature (and probably other reasons too, insert complaints about Fatetagging here), ascensions never had general tags. By the time the idea was actually raised, see topic #17300, remodel-style general tags were already a thing, and so an initial pitch was made to use that format... until the current admin stepped forth and basically began the domino effect that would eventually kill remodel-style general tags: ''If a character has multiple distinct versions, then each version should get its own tag.'' So, with that, further bolstered by topic #20723 and topic #21023, ascensions received their own tags. But the big, big difference between F/GO and Arknights is that, for the former, ascensions can still be discerned more often than not - meanwhile, more often than not, Arknights' Elite IIs are not discernible from their defaults, so if you were to pitch the F/GO approach, most cases of (elite_nulla) and (elite_ii) would be (near-)identical. This isn't even to mention that not all ascensions are tagged to begin with, because the emphasis is on the visual differences between ascensions (something tangibly taggable), not just tagging them because they are ascensions.

So, yeah, by all accounts, the tag shouldn't have existed to begin with. If you wanted a way to search up Elite II official art, then a pool ala what blindVigil suggested seems like the most valid option, and if actually discussed years ago, would likely have been the way to go. Elite II parody art, meanwhile as suggested, could be covered with a tag because it's a recognizable enough style that's distinct from general Arknights style parodies.

Updated

Damian0358 said:

Ignoring all the flourishes the official art may have, Elite II art can be divided in three categories: a) completely new look; b) variation on current look; c) completely same look. Those under a) would have to get their own tags, and c) would not, but b) becomes an iffy point. Mudrock is the perfect example of this - fundamentally, her Elite II art is just partially removing her suit, revealing what she actually looks like. If you were to ask any other Danbooru tagger on site, they'd be telling you that making a tag for that is preposterous, because it's just her without her suit on. The only ones who wouldn't react like that would be the Fate/Grand Order taggers, and that's only because they tag the default appearance distinctly too.

Someone has actually created and populated a Mudrock (elite ii) (arknights) (today), so I guess we need to have the discussion on where the line should be drawn on these.

blindVigil said:

Someone has actually created and populated a Mudrock (elite ii) (arknights) (today), so I guess we need to have the discussion on where the line should be drawn on these.

yeah, it was Stelle, without much discussion. As far as deciding what deserves a tag and what doesn't, I would support option A (completely new look) only. Very few elite 2 promotions actually present new, distinct details. At best it's a minor outfit alteration and at worst they just stand differently -- looking at you, Kal'tsit -- so why should they get their own tags? Why are they being likened to costume tags, which completely alter the appearance of a character? Other good examples are Blue Poison (Elite II), who only takes off her corset thing and puts on thighhighs, or Skadi (Elite II), who changes her thigh cutout and takes off her hat. Are minor, minor differences like headwear removed so important that we need whole new chartags?

the argument about elite 2 splash art and a tag for official promotion art would be much better off as a pool, I agree. no artist is going to draw Mudrock's shield effect and red sarkaz demon in every unarmored, breast focus image of hers.

blindVigil said:

Someone has actually created and populated a Mudrock (elite ii) (arknights) (today), so I guess we need to have the discussion on where the line should be drawn on these.

Yeah, that someone being Stelle. Prior to making their post here, they were actually making Elite II chartags generally, because for some reason, despite it having been two weeks since the general tag was deprecated, everyone has been dragging their feet when it comes to actually making the replacement chartags. That was actually part of the reason why, about a week ago with forum #243756, I actually went ahead and dealt with GFL's MOD3 tag, because aside from the precedent set by the death of the Remodel general tag and this thread, I wanted to show how things would look if someone fucking knuckled-down and made the tags. MOD3 wasn't even deprecated yet, but I wanted to prove a point (and bless bacon and eido for helping me), especially since in terms of size, the MOD3 tag was of comparable size to the Elite II tag.

It is a genuine failure in my eyes that it took until today for the tags to be made in the first place, and of all people to make them, it wasn't a contributor/builder/gold-level user, but a member-level user, one who got rate-limited in the process of making them (as I messaged them about an accidental mistag on their end, and the rate-limit was the only thing stopping them from fixing it immediately). They shouldn't have needed to burden themselves with making the tags when the people who voted for the deprecation have the tools to make them far faster than they ever could, doubly so when you remember they were the only one to downvote the BUR, contrasting Username Hidden's 'meh' vote despite voicing their own dissent.

While I agree that it's silly that no one else got around to this (I would've if I hadn't been so busy, and there was still the issue of whether certain characters should even get one that never got discussed), they almost exclusively only created tags for characters with only minor changes in design, probably because for some reason those were the only posts Poinf was actually bothering to add the tag to. I mean, Exusiai (elite ii) (arknights) is literally just her unzipping her jacket. I was surprised to not see a Lappland (elite ii) (arknights).

They did all that work, and a lot of it is just going to be undone because we never ironed out the specifics.

blindVigil said:

While I agree that it's silly that no one else got around to this (I would've if I hadn't been so busy, and there was still the issue of whether certain characters should even get one that never got discussed), they almost exclusively only created tags for characters with only minor changes in design, probably because for some reason those were the only posts Poinf was actually bothering to add the tag to. I mean, Exusiai (elite ii) (arknights) is literally just her unzipping her jacket. I was surprised to not see a Lappland (elite ii) (arknights).

They did all that work, and a lot of it is just going to be undone because we never ironed out the specifics.

Regardless of whether or not those characters should have Elite II chartags, they should've at least been made so that an alternative at least existed until their fates were decided. Those Elite II tags that everyone would agree to be superfluous could easily just be agreed upon in discussion to be nuked via BUR afterward, no issue whatsoever. But instead of all the tags existing prior to the BUR being approved in the first place, none of them did, leaving the door open for this situation to occur in the first place.

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